Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?

[Gorditadogg]

Whatever any of us thinks about the ethics of improving cards, it is happening. And it will continue to happen to the extent the work done is undetectable. People can rationalize all sorts of things if it is their interest to do so, and the economics of turning low-grade cards into PSA 7's is in a lot of peoples' self-interests.

I am wondering how material this will be to the overall market. Soaking and cleaning seems to me to be prevalent already, and Greg Morris doesn't even lower their grades for wax stains anymore, probably figuring the buyer will just rub it off. So some of these improvements are already being commonly done, and I think don't have much potential to increase significantly.

I guess if you have a card with a crease and nice corners, you should expect to get more for it now. I'm not really sure how many of those cards are out there though, and if "fixing" them would be enough to skew the market. If there are enough 3's that turn into 6's and 7's it could cause those top end values to slide, but who knows.

So bottom line what I am wondering is whether this is a big deal or not.




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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Whatever any of us thinks about the ethics of improving cards, it is happening. And it will continue to happen to the extent the work done is undetectable. People can rationalize all sorts of things if it is their interest to do so, and the economics of turning low-grade cards into PSA 7's is in a lot of peoples' self-interests.

I am wondering how material this will be to the overall market. Soaking and cleaning seems to me to be prevalent already, and Greg Morris doesn't even lower their grades for wax stains anymore, probably figuring the buyer will just rub it off. So some of these improvements are already being commonly done, and I think don't have much potential to increase significantly.

I guess if you have a card with a crease and nice corners, you should expect to get more for it now. I'm not really sure how many of those cards are out there though, and if "fixing" them would be enough to skew the market. If there are enough 3's that turn into 6's and 7's it could cause those top end values to slide, but who knows.

So bottom line what I am wondering is whether this is a big deal or not.




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It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

Yes, that's all true. People are soaking cards, using art erasers to remove pencil marks and rubbing pantyhose to get rid of wax stains. Those practices are all widely done, and from reading Net54, widely accepted. It just seems to me that those "improvements" are already being done on a large scale and priced into the market.

If it's a problem ethically, we can debate, but we're already across the Rubicon on those things. It's being done, and the cards are out there.

So, if every collector bought a Kurt's Card Care Kit and cleaned all their cards, I don't think it would matter much because I think most cards that needed to be cleaned already have been.

Working out creases is new to me, but I wonder how many cards there are out there that would be high-grade except for a crease. Are there enough that, if they were all fixed, it would affect the market? I don't know.






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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is a huge deal and has been for decades. There are MANY people that just look for cards to "improve". It is a major business. The thing that many don't get is it is at ALL levels of cards. Yes no matter what you collect there are MANY people altering/making them nicer looking.

So what? Why do you care? Honestly. What difference does it make if people want to improve their cards? Just substitute "cards" with any other noun in your sentence above and I think you'll see why most people laugh or at least roll their eyes at that viewpoint. In general, people want to improve the condition of just about anything and everything. People make money improving things in pretty much all walks of life. This is completely normal behavior. Again, you're the crazy guy screaming at clouds.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

So what? Why do you care? Honestly. What difference does it make if people want to improve their cards? Just substitute "cards" with any other noun in your sentence above and I think you'll see why most people laugh or at least roll their eyes at that viewpoint. In general, people want to improve the condition of just about anything and everything. People make money improving things in pretty much all walks of life. This is completely normal behavior. Again, you're the crazy guy screaming at clouds.

Well, I think we care because if we have nice cards preserved in their original state, we are concerned their value may be diluted by a deluge of reconstituted Robocop cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Well, I think we care because if we have nice cards preserved in their original state, we are concerned their value may be diluted by a deluge of reconstituted Robocop cards.

But what if we actually all have Robocop cards that we mistakenly believe to be nice cards preserved in their original state and are concerned that their value may be diluted by a deluge of other Robocop cards?

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

But what if we actually all have Robocop cards that we mistakenly believe to be nice cards preserved in their original state and are concerned that their value may be diluted by a deluge of other Robocop cards?

Then the concern would be exactly the same. Whatever improved cards that exist in the current supply would be devalued, too, as more improved cards are added.



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[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

Then the concern would be exactly the same. Whatever improved cards that exist in the current supply would be devalued, too, as more improved cards are added.



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Exactly. And the hobby may take a path where provenance will be even important. In other words, a card with Black Swamp Find ( which was likely not to be altered)on its label will be worth more than a PSA 10 with Steve Aoki on its flip. Chain of custody could gain importance. For example Lionel Carter allowed Mastro and SGC slab his cards before consigning them. The fact that both Mastro and SGC have “ dirty hands” could affect the value of the cards. BTW, this is already done to a lesser extent whereby cards owned by known card doctors are shunned/ devalued.