2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know that you can really talk about Mauer as a catcher the same way you can talk about Posey or Molina.

Mauer appeared in 921 games as catcher but also 603 games as a first baseman. Compare that to Posey who appeared as a catcher in 1,093 games and only 229 at first base.

I think Mauer had essentially two careers, one as the premier catcher in the American League and another as a league average first baseman.

Not sure I understand the logic. Posey played about one season more at catcher than Mauer, yet we can't compare them as catchers?

[packs]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Not sure I understand the logic. Posey played about one season more at catcher than Mauer, yet we can't compare them as catchers?

Well, Posey was predominantly a catcher and I don't think it can be said that he had much of a career as a first baseman. But you can definitely talk about Mauer's second career as one.

Doesn't that make them different?

If it helps understand the point, Mauer played 15 seasons but from 2014 to 2018 he appeared as a catcher in 1 game.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

Well, Posey was predominantly a catcher and I don't think it can be said that he had much of a career as a first baseman. But you can definitely talk about Mauer's second career as one.

Doesn't that make them different?

Mauer certainly played more games at first than Posey and the other catchers he's being compared to, but it's his years playing catcher that are going to (probably) get him into the Hall of Fame this year. His last 5 years playing first base did not do much to add to the argument he should be in the Hall of Fame other than help increase his career totals.

[packs]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Mauer certainly played more games at first than Posey and the other catchers he's being compared to, but it's his years playing catcher that are going to (probably) get him into the Hall of Fame this year. His last 5 years playing first base did not do much to add to the argument he should be in the Hall of Fame other than help increase his career totals.

I don't disagree. He was average at best in his first baseman role. But that was still a third of his career.

Posey did not play a third of his career out of the position and neither did Molina, Piazza or most other catchers.

If Mauer had retired at 30 after his time as a catcher had come to an end, would he have a stronger or weaker case for the HOF? I think his counting stats still help him. He'd have 105 home runs, just over 600 RBIs and just over 1,400 hits if he hadn't played those last 5 years as a first baseman and DH.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't disagree. He was average at best in his first baseman role. But that was still a third of his career.

Posey did not play a third of his career out of the position and neither did Molina, Piazza or most other catchers.

Mauer makes it into the HOF as a catcher, and his stats bear that out. What is so hard to understand about that? If anything, his numbers at 1b detract somewhat from his candidacy. He is not getting in as a compiler, he is getting in because of his work during peak performance, as noted by James in his post. He was a catcher during that entire time, again playing nearly as many games at the position as Posey. To say he could not be compared to Posey as a catcher eludes me.

[packs]

I didn’t say that. I said in the same way and I meant as a career catcher. It’s hard to play catcher and we all know that. I think more than anything else defense and longevity is the case for Molina. I’ve always thought Mauer will be the test for Posey’s candidacy because they had similar numbers but I view Posey having an edge because he finished his career as a catcher.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't disagree. He was average at best in his first baseman role. But that was still a third of his career.

Posey did not play a third of his career out of the position and neither did Molina, Piazza or most other catchers.

If Mauer had retired at 30 after his time as a catcher had come to an end, would he have a stronger or weaker case for the HOF? I think his counting stats still help him. He'd have 105 home runs, just over 600 RBIs and just over 1,400 hits if he hadn't played those last 5 years as a first baseman and DH.

His increased career stats from playing 5 years at first certainly help him. Without them, his stats are generally below Posey except for a higher batting average. It looks like their WAR would be almost identical.

[G1911]

I don't see how the ~season gap in catcher games is a huge factor.

Counter to that is Mauer playing 1st base for another gap was a lot more valuable than Posey sitting at home. Mauer played another 500 games in his career, providing diminished value during that stretch but still value. A little over league bat for 500 games is a lot better than doing nothing at all.

C games > 1st base games

1st base games > not playing.

[Topps206]

ERA

Billy Wagner, 2.31
Trevor Hoffman, 2.87

WAR

Trevor Hoffman, 28
Billy Wagner, 27.7

ERA+

Billy Wagner, 187
Trevor Hoffman, 141


WHIP

Billy Wagner, 0.998
Trevor Hoffman, 1.058

Saves
Trevor Hoffman, 601
Billy Wagner, 422

It’s hard to have one without the other, and I question if Hoffman was better than Wagner, just a matter of getting more saves.

Absolutely, Wagner should be in, and playoffs shouldn’t negate that.