2024 Baseball Hall of Fame Tracker

Peter_Spaeth · #1 01-21-2024, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I agree, and that helps my point.

I will mention that a guy I think is at least interesting as a discussion for the hall is Dan Quisenberry, and contrary to my point above, even including the minors, he only started one game in his career (though it's interesting to note that one game was a complete game!) so there is the occasional guy who is slated to be a reliever from day one and that's likely more common now than it was back then. Quis was a special case because every pitching coach in history hated his delivery.

He's still a failed starter because if anyone thought he was good enough to start, they would have tried him there first.

BioCRN · #2 01-21-2024, 09:12 PM

Gossage came off a stellar season in the pen to put in a season as a starter that would be chalked up as forgettable at best. That season put him back in the pen.

Over his 11 season peak, that 1 season starting he put up a 3.94 ERA and 1.36 WHIP. The other 10 relief seasons were all great.

This is also an era where a "closer" being asked to work 1.something innings rather than just 1 inning or rarely 1.1 or more IP.

The entire role of a "closer" wildly changed from it's emergence in the late 70s, to the early/mid 80s, to what we've been doing with the role the past 40-ish years.

Though it's relatively new, we've been doing it long enough that career longevity is a thing. The pickings of those who got a full career out of it and doing with consistent greatness is still thin over this past 40 years. We've had lots of greats, and very few greats with an entire career to show for it.

doug.goodman · #3 01-21-2024, 09:24 PM

I wouldn't put Mariano in either.

His team played 1,450 plus innings each year, he played 67 1/2.

If he was so good why did he play so little?

He seldom entered a game where his team had less than a 90% chance of winning. What other player is ever in a situation that he always has a 90% chance of success?

https://retrosheet.org/Research/Smit...fTheCloser.pdf

The only thing I'll give him credit for is having a beautiful autograph in an era of scribbles.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 01-21-2024, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

I wouldn't put Mariano in either.

His team played 1,450 plus innings each year, he played 67 1/2.

If he was so good why did he play so little?

He seldom entered a game where his team had less than a 90% chance of winning. What other player is ever in a situation that he always has a 90% chance of success?

https://retrosheet.org/Research/Smit...fTheCloser.pdf

The only thing I'll give him credit for is having a beautiful autograph in an era of scribbles.

To his credit, his WHIP was outstanding.

paul · #5 01-21-2024, 11:00 PM

Doug, thanks for posting that article about closers. It's amazing and confirms what I always thought to be true. A team's chances of winning in a "save" situation has not improved with the introduction of closers. It really calls into question the value of closers, and why teams spend so much on them.

doug.goodman · #6 01-22-2024, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul

Doug, thanks for posting that article about closers. It's amazing and confirms what I always thought to be true. A team's chances of winning in a "save" situation has not improved with the introduction of closers. It really calls into question the value of closers, and why teams spend so much on them.

Don't thank me, thank David Smith, who is more deserving of a plaque at Cooperstown than Mariano (and others).

doug.goodman · #7 01-22-2024, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To his credit, his WHIP was outstanding.

I don't dispute that he was great at doing the job he was asked to perform, I just posit that the job he was tasked with performing was not / is not / will not be worthy of HOF consideration due to the minimal amount of time he spent on the field.

If Freddie Lynn had become incapacitated after his ROTY/MVP season, would he have gone into the HOF?

He played a similar amount of innings that year as Rivera played in his entire career.

cgjackson222 · #8 01-22-2024, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

https://retrosheet.org/Research/Smit...fTheCloser.pdf

Interesting research, thanks for posting. I wish they'd allow starters to pitch longer, and even allow middle relievers to go all the way. I feel like the fewer the relievers, the better. Those multi-pitcher no-hitters always seem unsatisfying to me compared with a complete game no-hitter.

I think MLB's move to have relievers face at least 3 batters (or close out an inning) was a small step in the right direction.

That being said, it is a difficult subject to research, because teams went from not using closers to using them so quickly, so there wasn't a huge window of time to compare teams that used closers with those that didn't. The figure 12 in the research shows that relievers have had a lower ERA than starters since 1954 with the exception of two years. I'd like to see the same graph with WHIP to account for starters getting earned runs after they have left the game. Probably wouldn't make a big difference though.

Here is an article about how the save statistic is making baseball worse (and how Goose Gossage's expletive-laced rants on the subject have a point).
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...lief-pitchers/

And another article by Nate Silver contrasting pitchers who have been both starters and relievers in their career, and how to bring balance back to bullpens:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...lan-to-fix-it/

jayshum · #9 01-22-2024, 06:06 AM

Here's a story about Sheffield and his connections to PEDs. I've also read that he was an advocate for testing before it became a part of baseball so I think that makes his story more believable and that he should be voted in.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...e/71944010007/

Aquarian Sports Cards · #10 01-22-2024, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He's still a failed starter because if anyone thought he was good enough to start, they would have tried him there first.

I can't call someone who was never given a chance a failure.

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