Surprising baseball facts

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Lobo Aullando

I had to look up Cecil Travis, too.

He should be in the Hall of Fame.

Yeah, I've always said there'd be no argument from me on that idea.

Both Cecil and his contemporary Mel Harder, who was a friend of mine, need to be put in there. Harder has the strange distinction of getting enough votes but NOT being inducted (?!). He could have lived to see it happen, too. Stupid, stupid "institution", Cooperstown is.

[7nohitter]

Nolan Ryan was robbed of a Cy Young in 1973 by the pretty boy in Baltimore.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Yeah, I've always said there'd be no argument from me on that idea.

Both Cecil and his contemporary Mel Harder, who was a friend of mine, need to be put in there. Harder has the strange distinction of getting enough votes but NOT being inducted (?!). He could have lived to see it happen, too. Stupid, stupid "institution", Cooperstown is.

Not trying to be argumentative, but it doesn't look like Harder came close to getting the 75% needed to get in with the regular voting. Which election are you referring to where he got enough votes but was not inducted? Was it one of the versions of the Veteran's Committee? It's harder to find percentages for those, especially for the earlier incarnations of the committee.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by molenick

Not trying to be argumentative, but it doesn't look like Harder came close to getting the 75% needed to get in with the regular voting. Which election are you referring to where he got enough votes but was not inducted? Was it one of the versions of the Veteran's Committee? It's harder to find percentages for those, especially for the earlier incarnations of the committee.

It happened with the Veteran's Committee in 1999. He received the 75% needed, but two other players received more. At the time, only two were to be elected, so Mel was out even though he was "in".

Both Harder and Travis seem like such ideal Veteran's Committee picks, too. With the caliber of baseball surrounding them in the 1930's-40's AL, it's no surprise that they'd be lost to time and thought for an extended period. What bothers me, though, is that Mel received enough votes, was subsequently locked out on a technicality, and apparently just never thought of again for the next quarter century?!

I suppose that it shouldn't bother me so much, because I doubt it bothered Mel. He was so incredibly kind and humble and would have done Cooperstown proud in a similar way to his teammate Joe Sewell. He had also been in poor health those last few years of his life, and maybe it was a blessing in its own way. He would have zapped whatever strength he had replying to the additional boatload of autograph requests, including a handwritten letter in each envelope.

Another great Harder fact that fits in to the theme of this thread: Mel actually threw the first and the last pitches at Municipal Stadium. Going by memory from my visit to his place, regarding that final pitch, he said, "I barely got it over the plate." Well, Mel, you were 83 years old...

[This inspired me to check YouTube to watch that moment for the first time. Thankfully, somebody with a HandyCam was filming it and has uploaded their shaky footage. It was a ridiculously high pitch, but Mel did much more than "barely get it over the plate". His statement just speaks more to his incredibly humble nature.]

[GeoPoto]

"On August 17, 1957 at Connie Mack Stadium in Philadelphia, Alice Roth was struck in the face by a foul ball off the bat of Richie Ashburn, resulting in a broken nose. After a brief delay for medical staff to attend to Ms. Roth, on the very next pitch, Ashburn lined another foul and hit the woman as she was being carried off on a stretcher. That ball broke a bone in her leg."

Winner, winner; chicken, dinner!

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

"On August 17, 1957 at Connie Mack Stadium in Philadelphia, Alice Roth was struck in the face by a foul ball off the bat of Richie Ashburn, resulting in a broken nose. After a brief delay for medical staff to attend to Ms. Roth, on the very next pitch, Ashburn lined another foul and hit the woman as she was being carried off on a stretcher. That ball broke a bone in her leg."

Winner, winner; chicken, dinner!

Makes you wonder how much Ms. Roth bore a resemblance to Ruth Ann Steinhagen and he was out for retribution!

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Makes you wonder how much Ms. Roth bore a resemblance to Ruth Ann Steinhagen and he was out for retribution!

Well, Riche was always a singles hitter anyhow.

[Vintageclout]

Going into the final 10 days of his remarkable career, no one had ever pinch hit for Ted Williams, arguably baseball’s greatest all-time hitter. Then, on September 20, 1960 in the first inning against the Baltimore Orioles, Ted fouled a ball off his instep, painfully limping into the dugout….he could not return. Carol Hardy was called off the bench to pinch hit for “The Kid” and promptly lined into a double play. A truly historic moment for Hardy who will forever be dubbed as the only man to ever pinch hit for the iconic Ted Williams!

Interestingly enough, right-fielder Sammy Vick is “allegedly” the only player to ever pinch hit for baseball’s other premier slugger, Babe Ruth. The Babe and Vick played together on the 1920 Yankees, Ruth replacing Vick as the Yankees right fielder. Vick insisted for years that Miller Huggins selected him to pinch hit for Ruth in a 1920 game due to the Bambino straining his wrist. Unfortunately, Vick never applied an actual date to his story, and based on baseball reference, there is no official account of this occurrence.

[guy3050]

Hitting for the Natural cycle (14) is more rare then throwing a perfect game (24)

[John1941]

Masaichi Kaneda became a regular starter for the Koketsu Swallows at 16. From 1951 (age 17) to 1964 (age 30) he threw between 300 and 400 innings, won between 20 and 31 games and struck out between 229 and 350 batters every single year. By the end of his age 30 season he had won 353 games and struck out 4065 batters. Over the next five seasons, from 1965 to the end of his career, he won 47 games and struck out 425 batters.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by guy3050

Hitting for the Natural cycle (14) is more rare then throwing a perfect game (24)

What’s a natural cycle if I may ask?

[molenick]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

It happened with the Veteran's Committee in 1999. He received the 75% needed, but two other players received more. At the time, only two were to be elected, so Mel was out even though he was "in".

Both Harder and Travis seem like such ideal Veteran's Committee picks, too. With the caliber of baseball surrounding them in the 1930's-40's AL, it's no surprise that they'd be lost to time and thought for an extended period. What bothers me, though, is that Mel received enough votes, was subsequently locked out on a technicality, and apparently just never thought of again for the next quarter century?!

I suppose that it shouldn't bother me so much, because I doubt it bothered Mel. He was so incredibly kind and humble and would have done Cooperstown proud in a similar way to his teammate Joe Sewell. He had also been in poor health those last few years of his life, and maybe it was a blessing in its own way. He would have zapped whatever strength he had replying to the additional boatload of autograph requests, including a handwritten letter in each envelope.

Another great Harder fact that fits in to the theme of this thread: Mel actually threw the first and the last pitches at Municipal Stadium. Going by memory from my visit to his place, regarding that final pitch, he said, "I barely got it over the plate." Well, Mel, you were 83 years old...

[This inspired me to check YouTube to watch that moment for the first time. Thankfully, somebody with a HandyCam was filming it and has uploaded their shaky footage. It was a ridiculously high pitch, but Mel did much more than "barely get it over the plate". His statement just speaks more to his incredibly humble nature.]

Thank you. I was not aware of this and it's always good to learn something new.

[irishdenny]

In 1909 Mr. Ty Cobb Hit 9 Home runs an was the Home Run Leader...

None of them went over a fence !*

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Yeah, I've always said there'd be no argument from me on that idea.

Both Cecil and his contemporary Mel Harder, who was a friend of mine, need to be put in there. Harder has the strange distinction of getting enough votes but NOT being inducted (?!). He could have lived to see it happen, too. Stupid, stupid "institution", Cooperstown is.

I'm not familiar with the careers of either Cecil Travis or Mel Harder. Looking at their stats, it looks like Travis may have had a chance to be in the Hall of Fame until he missed 3 years for military service. When he came back after WWII, he was clearly no longer the same player and was out of the majors at age 33. I can see an argument being made for him being inducted, but he probably needed a few more good years that he likely would have had if not for being in the military.

As for Harder, his stats show 4 or 5 very good seasons but overall it looks to me that he had a solid career but not one that makes me think he definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame. Regarding him getting 75% of the vote from the Veterans Committee but not getting in because 2 others were higher, does anyone have a link to the actual voting results showing that? I found a few places that mention it happened but couldn't find the actual results anywhere. If it was in 1999, then it looks like the Veterans Committee elected 4 people that year not 2.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/in...ss%20of%201999.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I'm not familiar with the careers of either Cecil Travis or Mel Harder. Looking at their stats, it looks like Travis may have had a chance to be in the Hall of Fame until he missed 3 years for military service. When he came back after WWII, he was clearly no longer the same player and was out of the majors at age 33. I can see an argument being made for him being inducted, but he probably needed a few more good years that he likely would have had if not for being in the military.

As for Harder, his stats show 4 or 5 very good seasons but overall it looks to me that he had a solid career but not one that makes me think he definitely belongs in the Hall of Fame. Regarding him getting 75% of the vote from the Veterans Committee but not getting in because 2 others were higher, does anyone have a link to the actual voting results showing that? I found a few places that mention it happened but couldn't find the actual results anywhere. If it was in 1999, then it looks like the Veterans Committee elected 4 people that year not 2.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/in...ss%20of%201999.

What you say about Travis has always been the biggest strike against him.

With Mel, it's the old, "Well, if he played in New York, he'd have been a shoe-in!" argument. Alas, Mel was with the lowly Indians for his entire career, retiring the season before he'd perhaps have had a chance to win a WS ring as a player. I supposed the same could be said for Travis, as he played in Washington, but I think the argument is stronger in this regard for a 20-year career, single team man.

I agree with your assessments as to why they're not in, and most certainly why they weren't good candidates immediately following their careers, but the "why not's" are also there and they always looked like solid picks as VC selections. Lots of worse and more embarrassing selections, to be certain. I would not be embarrassed to see these two guys voted in.

[molenick]

I saw that four were elected that year, but apparently they could elect two "regular" veterans, plus (in two separate ballots) one from the 19th century and one Negro Leaguer. At least if I am understanding the rules correctly. As for the actual voting, I can't find the totals.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

What you say about Travis has always been the biggest strike against him.

With Mel, it's the old, "Well, if he played in New York, he'd have been a shoe-in!" argument. Alas, Mel was with the lowly Indians for his entire career, retiring the season before he'd perhaps have had a chance to win a WS ring as a player. I supposed the same could be said for Travis, as he played in Washington, but I think the argument is stronger in this regard for a 20-year career, single team man.

I agree with your assessments as to why they're not in, and most certainly why they weren't good candidates immediately following their careers, but the "why not's" are also there and they always looked like solid picks as VC selections. Lots of worse and more embarrassing selections, to be certain. I would not be embarrassed to see these two guys voted in.

Originally Posted by molenick

I saw that four were elected that year, but apparently they could elect two "regular" veterans, plus (in two separate ballots) one from the 19th century and one Negro Leaguer. At least if I am understanding the rules correctly. As for the actual voting, I can't find the totals.

Neither would be the worst picks made by the Veterans Committee that's for sure.

Without seeing the actual voting results, I find it hard to believe Harder really got 75% of the vote but didn't get inducted. Given how much discussion there is about Hall of Fame voting every year, I would think something like that happening would be more documented and written about than just a few claims that it happened without any real evidence provided. I could be wrong because the Veterans Committee voting was not always well reported, but it seems like something like that happening would be well known.