Probstein video about trimmed cards

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know you don't do it, but most of them knowingly take consignments from known card doctors. You don't need to examine the cards that carefully to know the score.

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

[Leon]

I agree with most of this. However, those before and after pictures are almost universally real and show fraud. I wouldn't discount their chain of custody.
Part of the problem is the apathy about it in the industry, as you also seem to be that way. And I get it....But we can't just ignore all of the fraud because it's ubiquitous.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree with most of this. However, those before and after pictures are almost universally real and show fraud. I wouldn't discount their chain of custody.
Part of the problem is the apathy about it in the industry, as you also seem to be that way. And I get it....But we can't just ignore all of the fraud because it's ubiquitous.

I find myself somewhere in the middle on this issue. Are there scumbags who earn their living by slicing up cards and flipping them for huge proftis by getting them past the grading companies? Yes, absolutely. Are some, perhaps many, of those called out by BODA actually the people responsible? Surely, yes some are. Are all of those called out by BODA responsible for this behavior? Highly doubtful, IMO.

I'm grateful that this stuff was discovered. No question about that. I just pump the brakes when the mob wants heads to roll over accusations that are far from proven. And even then, I remain unconvinced that it's a crime.

The only people who think this trimming cards is criminal behavior are a small subset of collectors. You could explain card trimming to 100 random strangers on the street and ask them what they think about it, and the responses you'll hear from them will all be something along the lines of, "clever", "smart", "genius", or "where do I learn how to do that?" You might find 1 person out of 100 that would say, "lock them up!" It's just the reality of the situation. People just don't care. Certainly not enough people for it to ever change anyhow. It is what it is.

I like the fact that the curtain has been unveiled. I know which cards I don't want in my collection, and I have educated myself enough to know how to avoid them. I know the risks every time I crack open a slab, and that I may never be able to get that card back into the same holder. I try to navigate this hobby with knowledge and experience. Others seem to want to navigate it with grenades.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I find myself somewhere in the middle on this issue. Are there scumbags who earn their living by slicing up cards and flipping them for huge proftis by getting them past the grading companies? Yes, absolutely. Are some, perhaps many, of those called out by BODA actually the people responsible? Surely, yes some are. Are all of those called out by BODA responsible for this behavior? Highly doubtful, IMO.

I'm grateful that this stuff was discovered. No question about that. I just pump the brakes when the mob wants heads to roll over accusations that are far from proven. And even then, I remain unconvinced that it's a crime.

The only people who think this trimming cards is criminal behavior are a small subset of collectors. You could explain card trimming to 100 random strangers on the street and ask them what they think about it, and the responses you'll hear from them will all be something along the lines of, "clever", "smart", "genius", or "where do I learn how to do that?" You might find 1 person out of 100 that would say, "lock them up!" It's just the reality of the situation. People just don't care. Certainly not enough people for it to ever change anyhow. It is what it is.

I like the fact that the curtain has been unveiled. I know which cards I don't want in my collection, and I have educated myself enough to know how to avoid them. I know the risks every time I crack open a slab, and that I may never be able to get that card back into the same holder. I try to navigate this hobby with knowledge and experience. Others seem to want to navigate it with grenades.

I think your estimates are way off. The percentage of people who would think undisclosed card-trimming for resale is criminal would be much higher... if it's framed accurately, of course.

Q: Do you think people who take baseball cards and make them look nicer are committing a crime?
A: Uh, no.

Q: What if those people advertise those cards for sale as untrimmed, without disclosing to prospective buyers that they're actually trimmed?
A: OK, that's not great.

Q: And what if they don't disclose the trimming because then the cards would appeal to a much smaller number of buyers, significantly bringing down the market value?
A: Yeah, that sounds like fraud. The buyers have a right to know.

On that last question, I'd guess the percentage of people calling it an ingenius scheme and asking for a tutorial would be no higher than 40-50%. Society's not 99% scumbag quite yet. Inching closer, sure, but not quite there.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I think your estimates are way off. The percentage of people who would think undisclosed card-trimming for resale is criminal would be much higher... if it's framed accurately, of course.

Q: Do you think people who take baseball cards and make them look nicer are committing a crime?
A: Uh, no.

Q: What if those people advertise those cards for sale as untrimmed, without disclosing to prospective buyers that they're actually trimmed?
A: OK, that's not great.

Q: And what if they don't disclose the trimming because then the cards would appeal to a much smaller number of buyers, significantly bringing down the market value?
A: Yeah, that sounds like fraud. The buyers have a right to know.

On that last question, I'd guess the percentage of people calling it an ingenius scheme and asking for a tutorial would be no higher than 40-50%. Society's not 99% scumbag quite yet. Inching closer, sure, but not quite there.

You're making a lot of assumptions though and giving someone a narrative to agree to. If card trimming isn't a crime to begin with and if it in fact does not devalue a card whatsoever, then you've misled your audience and just gotten them to agree to your strawman.

It is perhaps worth noting that not all trimmed cards are the same. Some are definitely worth less after they've been trimmed. Others are definitely not.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're making a lot of assumptions though and giving someone a narrative to agree to. If card trimming isn't a crime to begin with and if it in fact does not devalue a card whatsoever, then you've misled your audience and just gotten them to agree to your strawman.

It is perhaps worth noting that not all trimmed cards are the same. Some are definitely worth less after they've been trimmed. Others are definitely not.

Can you give concrete examples of cards that are worth more trimmed than left alone? If we make the issue less abstract, then maybe we can find some common ground.

I'm operating from the assumption that people who know that a card is trimmed and fail to disclose it are doing so because they see financial value in keeping others in the dark. If trimming the card didn't negatively affect its market, then there would be no logical reason to keep it a secret.

If you're suggesting that some trimming "does not devalue a card whatsoever" because people who are none the wiser pay top dollar, then I think we're simply at opposite ends of the ethical spectrum. The relevant question for me isn't whether the money is there given the state of the hobby as it stands, where ignorance is bliss, but rather whether the same money would still be there if the cards were sold as "Authentic Altered," rather than stuck in slabs with numeric grades.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Can you give concrete examples of cards that are worth more trimmed than left alone? If we make the issue less abstract, then maybe we can find some common ground.

I'm operating from the assumption that people who know that a card is trimmed and fail to disclose it are doing so because they see financial value in keeping others in the dark. If trimming the card didn't negatively affect its market, then there would be no logical reason to keep it a secret.

If you're suggesting that some trimming "does not devalue a card whatsoever" because people who are none the wiser pay top dollar, then I think we're simply at opposite ends of the ethical spectrum. The relevant question for me isn't whether the money is there given the state of the hobby as it stands, where ignorance is bliss, but rather whether the same money would still be there if the cards were sold as "Authentic Altered," rather than stuck in slabs with numeric grades.

There is that T206 Wagner that started it all.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

This 100 percent. You may not like it, but people have accepted it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. them.

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

[rhettyeakley]

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

I find fascinating the amount of cynicism on this issue from members who seem very uncynical about many other things.

I guess it just comes down to money? If you or someone else is making a bunch of it, then who really cares about right and wrong? Now THAT is emblematic of out society today...

[Leon]

Money

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

+100

Always the same people defending as well.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

+100

Always the same people defending as well.

Not really, it depends on WHO is being called out by who defends them.

[Steve D]

I look at it this as more of a discussion about "eye appeal", than of trimming.

There are plenty of cards that are untrimmed, but have poor eye appeal for the grade; I stay away from those, as even if you pay a low price, you still have a card you think is ugly.

On the other hand, there are cards that have outstanding eye appeal for the grade, and some of them may be trimmed. The bottom line for me, is the eye appeal.....if the eye appeal is good to me, it doesn't really matter if it might be trimmed; I know I like the card, but I do not know for certain that it is trimmed.

Basically, for me, if the eye appeal outweighs the possibility of trimming, then I would probably enjoy having the card.

Steve

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I look at it this as more of a discussion about "eye appeal", than of trimming.

There are plenty of cards that are untrimmed, but have poor eye appeal for the grade; I stay away from those, as even if you pay a low price, you still have a card you think is ugly.

On the other hand, there are cards that have outstanding eye appeal for the grade, and some of them may be trimmed. The bottom line for me, is the eye appeal.....if the eye appeal is good to me, it doesn't really matter if it might be trimmed; I know I like the card, but I do not know for certain that it is trimmed.

Basically, for me, if the eye appeal outweighs the possibility of trimming, then I would probably enjoy having the card.

Steve

Well, the eye appeal thing makes sense, but the trimming part most are referencing has to do with cards that are receiving high numerical grades which translates to $$$$ (many cases it's not petty cash).

There's a lot in play. Start with "ethics: Those that trim for the purpose of deception; grading companies that turn a blind eye; sellers that don't give a crap; investors that only care about making a buck and don't care about the hobby impacts.

Proceed to FRAUD. The end result is a community of hobbyist/collectors/investors that all have different views on it. Go back to ethics and start there.

[molenick]

I am trying to complete a high grade Diamond Stars set. I do my best to avoid cards that have been "outed" on the Blowout board or that look trimmed to my eye, and I only buy from reputable auction houses. But at this point, it is possible probable that I have some trimmed cards. I don't have the heart to research every one and it makes me wary of buying any more cards in higher condition.

After Blowout started posting before/after photos of trimmed cards, I was contacted by PWCC and they offered to buy back the cards they sold me that were listed (I got an email from them about each card). I can't remember, but this was maybe two or three Leafs in total. I also found an E card that was listed and they bought that back as well. I am guessing this was in 2019 or 2020. I have not had this happen with other sellers. Of course, PWCC was the one selling the trimmed cards in the first place, so that doesn't absolve them. But at least they bought back the cards they sold me that had been publicly identified as trimmed or altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

Given how I was educated in the hobby, I find the increasing indifference of so many people, particularly the next generation, shocking. And then even beyond that to hear the defenders -- oh it's not their job, so it's fine if they enable the card doctors. I am sure it's realistic, but still.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

I'm not referring to the BODA people as hobby clowns. I'm referring to the guys on youtube and social media whose entire existence is just to slander people left and right and $#!+ on the hobby every day.