Happy Festivus! Airing of Grievances 2023 Edition

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--I think the reason is that making the first move conveys information to the other party. If one is willing to sell an item for $X but the potential buyer indicates he is willing to pay $X+ then the seller has been advantaged by not making the first move. The same is obviously true if the seller shows an offer before the buyer has bid.

True, but if no one makes the first move, nothing gets sold.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

True, but if no one makes the first move, nothing gets sold.

Nor does the earth get repopulated with humans.

Brian

[jingram058]

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!

I couldn't care any less about that, because, for me, it's a hobby. I don't even care if my cards are counterfeit fakes, because if they are, someone went to an awful lot of trouble, more than the actual manufacturer ever did.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!
.

Absolutely not true in every case, because I can attest to being the exception. I love my collection graded, I can’t tell you what any card sells for nor do I care, and I grade Authentics, 1’s, 2’s, etc. I’ll slab a card that I paid $5 for. Don’t care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!

I couldn't care any less about that, because, for me, it's a hobby. I don't even care if my cards are counterfeit fakes, because if they are, someone went to an awful lot of trouble, more than the actual manufacturer ever did.

That's a rather unkind view of other collectors. People can collect whatever and however they want, whether it is raw, slabbed, modern, vintage...whatever. Just because I don't like it doesn't make them less valid as collectors. As long as they treat fellow collectors with respect and have fun with it, it's all good.

A card



I guess I must be into stupid stuff since I've owned two graded copies of this card. Couldn't just be that I enjoyed it so much that when I sold the first one I immediately started looking for its replacement...

ETA: nothing is wrong with being an investor either. Just don't be a douche.

[G1911]

I don’t see how any of the 3 groups - investors, collectors, or investor-collectors - are better than any of the other groups. The investors throw tantrums and attack if a collector doesn’t put the fiscal interest of investors over their own collecting, the collectors are bitter and angry at the investors and do much the same thing. It also seems to me that selling and buying cards is a painless and easy experience 99.9% of the time on either end, but that is evidently a minority view. And thus we have 67 posts in the holiday bitchfest thread and 6 in the Merry Christmas thread .

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

we have 67 posts in the holiday bitchfest thread and 6 in the Merry Christmas thread .

Complaining is my jam. As holidays go, I am more of a:

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid.

Narrow take.

Just because I consider myself more a "collector" than an investor, does that mean I'm supposed to just totally throw caution to the wind with my resources and disregard what anything in my collection might be worth?

I have brokerage accounts and savings that are the bulk of my "investments", on which I hope to be able to retire one day. I'm not one of those counting on cardboard or PSA slabs to do that for me in 20+ years. But even if the cards are largely a fun thing for me as a hobby, clearly they still cost money to obtain. If I decide to get rid of something one day or shift direction as a collector, the monetary value of some of my collection might be something of interest to me, even if only for the purposes of acquiring new cards - maybe ya think? To be ignorant of such things as a collector might be the opposite of being a hardcore investor, but I would argue being totally ignorant of value at some point - especially if you are going to possess valuable cards - just makes you a dumb collector. Given all the scandals of late like slabgate, altered cards in numbered slabs and the like coming out of Covid - there is a certain price point by now that I will not buy a card above if it's raw, if I cannot physically inspect it in-person first. That's just common sense.

Maybe you don't care about authenticity, sorry; but I do; that's the entire freaking point. I recently was able to acquire an (admittedly low grade, but authentic) 1963 Topps Pete Rose RC. Why in a million years at this point would I ever buy a card like that raw online? That would make zero sense - again assuming I give a flip about authenticity. First, even in low grade - it's what I consider a fairly valuable (north of $500 anyway...) card. Second, this is one of the most notoriously faked / counterfeited cards of all time. Why take the chance, why waste my time? Yes even with crappy raw scans, I can generally tell if something is genuine or not online, I've been around the block enough times to know what to look for. But even if ebay would stand behind me, or some other entity - why would I risk going through the hassle of being out real money and having to wait on a refund or judgement when I could just buy a slab?

Sure, PSA and SGC and others have made mistakes, have made BIG mistakes, and undoubtedly will continue to do so. But once the dust settles from all of that is the more or less undisputed fact that they also get more than 95% of it RIGHT.

If you don't like slabs, or like I used to in the past - don't like the look, but can appreciate the limited value that the service provides even if you bust them later - who freaking cares? I wouldn't disparage you for hating slabs, or buying only raw. The more money you spend on raw cards, the more risk you take on. But risk tolerance is a hugely personal thing - whether you are a collector, an investor - or some combination of both - which yes sorry, is entirely possible and happens.

Maybe don't worry so much about how those different from you "hobby"...

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Don't drink and post!

[jingram058]

Well, I am totally not surprised by the responses. I would expect the regular posters to respond the way they have. net54, while I love it dearly, is what I would call "the palace of graded cards". That's how I see it. We had a saying in the Navy, "perception is reality".

There are only 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone, for having your cards graded: you are concerned about condition, which equates to monetary value, and/or you are concerned about authenticity.

I like having my cards, and I like handling them from time to time. Likewise, the memorabilia that accompanies them. They are a direct link to both the era they come from, and to my very happy childhood.

I don't care about card grading. I am not worried in the slightest about my cards value, condition, or authenticity. They are fine for me. I doubt seriously if they are fake, but if they are, they were so well done that I can't tell. My wife and daughter will be fine if I pass away. For personal, selfish reasons, I hope and pray I go first. They will be financially fine, from my converted Veterans Group Life Insurance to real estate to health care. Not from baseball cards. They know their potential worth, but beyond that, very little interest. They both love modern day baseball, but aside from Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth, the rest of baseball history beyond the 1970s is lost on them. So you guys can get my cards and other stuff from them if I up and croak. Feel free to have them graded.

[jchcollins]

James, that's all well and good as long as you would concede the rest of us are not "stupid" simply because we hobby different from you.

N54 is hardly the only haven for graded cards. Look everywhere else around you...eBay, shops, shows, auction houses. They've been around for quite some time and are likely to stay. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, I am totally not surprised by the responses. I would expect the regular posters to respond the way they have. net54, while I love it dearly, is what I would call "the palace of graded cards". That's how I see it. We had a saying in the Navy, "perception is reality".

There are only 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone, for having your cards graded: you are concerned about condition, which equates to monetary value, and/or you are concerned about authenticity.

I like having my cards, and I like handling them from time to time. Likewise, the memorabilia that accompanies them. They are a direct link to both the era they come from, and to my very happy childhood.

I don't care about card grading. I am not worried in the slightest about my cards value, condition, or authenticity. They are fine for me. I doubt seriously if they are fake, but if they are, they were so well done that I can't tell. My wife and daughter will be fine if I pass away. For personal, selfish reasons, I hope and pray I go first. They will be financially fine, from my converted Veterans Group Life Insurance to real estate to health care. Not from baseball cards. They know their potential worth, but beyond that, very little interest. They both love modern day baseball, but aside from Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth, the rest of baseball history beyond the 1970s is lost on them. So you guys can get my cards and other stuff from them if I up and croak. Feel free to have them graded.

I just don't see this population you are describing. There are plenty of pure collectors here. I have never submitted a card for grading. I have cracked out probably north of 1,000 by now. There are several OBC low grade raw guys here. There are plenty of other raw or not-money focused collectors posting. I email, call or text at least 20 from people here regularly about pure collecting of raw cards. The most viewed thread of all time, by far, on the post-war board here is about print variants in which 90% of the cards shown cost less than $7.

I also hope the market will have a true collapse, as it will make cards cheaper for collectors like me. I understand a couple of the more intense or immature investors throw a very public tantrum any time it's said (50/50 odds we'll have a new thread tomorrow whining a collector isn't putting someone else's investment portfolio first) but most seem to understand collectors and investors are doing two different things that are advantaged by different market movements. Most people have to care at some level though; most of us don't have a guaranteed retirement and families who are fine no matter what happens to our stuff. Maybe I will have to care someday if things change or if I get really sick - 99% of the population is just one run of very bad luck away from having to scrape by or is scraping by already. I am conscious it is a position of financial privilege that I have been able to collect some cards at all in my life. Not all of us have that fortunate guaranteed future you seem to have. That's a wonderful thing, good for you, but most of us are not in that boat.

Most investors still know their stuff. I haven't come across anyone in card land who "knows nothing about the ballplayers" as you claimed. As a 100% collector and 0% investor, some of my favorite people in the hobby are in the investor class. A person need not have the same goal I do to not be "stupid". In fact we can usually benefit each other - they want money more and I want cards more, so we can usually work a deal out that leaves us both happy and satisfied. I even, dare say, have probably had more help and aid from the investor class in my boxing research projects and surveys than I have had from the true-collector class.

People can have different ends in a hobby and still be decent folk. My way, which seems to effectively be the same as your way, is no better than X or Y's way. There's just a couple extremists on each 'side' that can't stand to hear anything done differently from them. One of the nice things about a hobby like this is you get 100% free choice of how to do it. You can collect, invest, do both, be social and active, or just quietly do things your own way. What another person chooses to do, while interesting because it's my hobby, doesn't really affect me much.