Was PUD GALVIN The First Doper?

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get are the impassioned arguments people make differentiating between greenies which their "clean" heroes gobbled, and "PEDs." It all improves performance that's why people take it.

Okay, I'll take the bait. There are significant differences between yesteryear's greenies, and today's performance enhancers. For brevity's sake, I'll highlight the two main ones.

First, greenies were legal. They were methamphetamines, which were readily available in stores and over-the-counter at the time. Methamphetamines were in diet pills, pills truck drivers took for energy, focus, and to stay awake, etc.

Mantle taking a greenie probably had the same effect as if he had drank a few cups of coffee before a game. Would you argue that gaining focus and energy through drinking 4 cups of coffee constitutes an unfair performance enhancer?

Conversely, non-medically prescribed steroids were and are illegal. Thus, one (greenies - methamphetamine pills) were legal at the time the players used them, whereas the other (steroids) were not.

Secondly, the performance enhancement level is not even questionable. Mantle basically took energy pills that were essentially the equivalent of drinking a few cups of coffee, whereas Bonds took steroids that caused him to hit the ball harder and further. Heck, they even increased his shoe and head size. Comparing greenies and steroids is like comparing apples and oranges.

Focus/energy v. brute strength.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Okay, I'll take the bait. There are significant differences between yesteryear's greenies, and today's performance enhancers. For brevity's sake, I'll highlight the two main ones.

First, greenies were legal. They were methamphetamines, which were readily available in stores and over-the-counter at the time. Methamphetamines were in diet pills, pills truck drivers took for energy, focus, and to stay awake, etc.

Mantle taking a greenie probably had the same effect as if he had drank a few cups of coffee before a game. Would you argue that gaining focus and energy through drinking 4 cups of coffee constitutes an unfair performance enhancer?

Conversely, non-medically prescribed steroids were and are illegal. Thus, one (greenies - methamphetamine pills) were legal at the time the players used them, whereas the other (steroids) were not.

Secondly, the performance enhancement level is not even questionable. Mantle basically took energy pills that were essentially the equivalent of drinking a few cups of coffee, whereas Bonds took steroids that caused him to hit the ball harder and further. Heck, they even increased his shoe and head size. Comparing greenies and steroids is like comparing apples and oranges.

Focus/energy v. brute strength.

Just to the bold part. That is so ridiculously unbelievable it is like saying heroin is the same as taking a couple aspirin for pain. If you don't believe me try your silly 4 cups of coffee and then do a nice half gram line of meth and tell me how similar they are.

[G1911]

People will seek a competitive advantage if they are liable to get away with it, by and large. People will generally lie, cheat, steal and do far worse if they believe the act is 1) to their gain and 2) they won't get caught. However, that does not excuse any misdeed because people in another time would have probably also done it if that route was available.

These arguments ignore that Pud Galvin and Babe Ruth gained nothing by weird experiments that were legal and not against the rules. Mickey Mantle did not turn the game into a mockery video game by having a greenie that did not violate the rules. The titanic gap between an energy stimulant and the result of steroids is incredibly obvious. I am very sympathetic to the early steroiders who were not violating baseball's rules at the time of their use, but I do not see any logical or reasonable comparison between Galvin and Bonds.

Would many members heroes have probably done the same thing if they had been able to and had access? Yeah, surely. Did they? No they didn't. A person is responsible for their actual actions, that people are generally of poor moral character and would do the same things if they didn't expect to be caught is not a defense. The steroid users are not special villains, but they are also the ones who actually did violate the rules and actually did turn the game into a video game joke.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by G1911

People will seek a competitive advantage if they are liable to get away with it, by and large. People will generally lie, cheat, steal and do far worse if they believe the act is 1) to their gain and 2) they won't get caught. However, that does not excuse any misdeed because people in another time would have probably also done it if that route was available.

These arguments ignore that Pud Galvin and Babe Ruth gained nothing by weird experiments that were legal and not against the rules. Mickey Mantle did not turn the game into a mockery video game by having a greenie that did not violate the rules. The titanic gap between an energy stimulant and the result of steroids is incredibly obvious. I am very sympathetic to the early steroiders who were not violating baseball's rules at the time of their use, but I do not see any logical or reasonable comparison between Galvin and Bonds.

Would many members heroes have probably done the same thing if they had been able to and had access? Yeah, surely. Did they? No they didn't. A person is responsible for their actual actions, that people are generally of poor moral character and would do the same things if they didn't expect to be caught is not a defense. The steroid users are not special villains, but they are also the ones who actually did violate the rules and actually did turn the game into a video game joke.

I am pretty sure this is the first time I have ever seen someone say Ruth and Mantle did not put up video game numbers.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am pretty sure this is the first time I have ever seen someone say Ruth and Mantle did not put up video game numbers.

I'd love to be educated on where I said Ruth didn't put up video game numbers (If you read, you would see I said he gained nothing by these weird experiments, which is indisputably true) and how Mantle put up video game stats.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just to the bold part. That is so ridiculously unbelievable it is like saying heroin is the same as taking a couple aspirin for pain. If you don't believe me try your silly 4 cups of coffee and then do a nice half gram line of meth and tell me how similar they are.

Meth and amphetamines are different.
Adderall is d-amphetamine and l-amphetamine salts in the ratio of 3:1.
It does nothing much to enhance performance of any kind.
At the dose that works for me, it's literally green capsules.

On personal experience, 4 cups of coffee? No. * cups of coffee? Yes.
That's how many cups I usually drank early in the work day before ADD meds.