Same SGC 7 Mantle Sold 4 times in 15 months

[Peter_Spaeth]

Also, someone tells me the SGC cert is not active?

[Rhotchkiss]

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Betsy wouldn't lie.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

That’s unreal. So it “sold” another time in 2021 for $950k. Same card, 5 sales, 4 from pwcc, two from vault/BIN. No, nothing fishy there at all. Totally normal and defensible

Interesting that its not picked up by VCP.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Betsy wouldn't lie.

Let's be clear about our claims here. You guys are accusing PWCC (and Betsy and Brent specifically) of faking these sales. Without evidence, I should add.

However, when you go to PWCC's sales history page, neither the $550k sale nor the $950k sale are listed. If the sales were real, and paid for, they would be listed.

So where do these "comps" come from? According to VCP, the $550k sale was an eBay sale where the seller was "pwcc_vault". The same is true of this "Mavin" sale. It says it was an eBay sale from the seller "pwcc_vault". Yet, PWCC doesn't list either of these sales.

The only auction house I am aware of that reports items as "sold" even if they don't get paid for is eBay. Which is where both of these "sales" (which apparently were not paid for according to PWCC's own records) occurred.

So your beef here is with eBay, yet it's being misdirected toward PWCC, despite not being warranted.

Someone faked the sales on eBay (all that is required is for some random account with zero feedback to "make an offer" or click on "buy it now" and then never pay). This is entirely on the consigner and/or the shill bidder. Not on PWCC.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Peter:

Can you or someone else please elaborate on the hobby fraud that was going on around 2016, I have heard rumblings about the same in the past. There was a period where I was out of touch with the hobby for a few years, including that time period.

Thanks!

[Rhotchkiss]

I have not accused Brett or Betsy of anything. What I have done is posted a series of Mantle SGC 7 alleged sales of the same card, including what Peter found, 4 of which sales are connected in some fashion to PWCC - either their auctions or their vault. Not REA, not Goldin, not any other house- rather PWCC, an outfit that has been involved (fact and documented) in numerous sketchy activities, got booted from eBay, and recently went belly up (from the top of the world). If the conclusion people are drawing is that PWCC or their old ownership was somehow connected with these “sales”, it’s tough to argue that. I have no direct proof. But where there is smoke….

Regardless, I don’t give a shit about PWCC or anyone there. That place imploded and I haven’t bought from them in years. They are history. Instead, I noticed the same mantle being sold 4 times in 2 years, each time for less, and I pointed that out and asked for theories. My theory is at least 1 of them (now 2) are fake sales intended to create inflated comps. I don’t know if it was PWCC, eBay, Brett/Betsy, other people, or all the above. But I do feel they were fake, nefarious, and PWCC is connected to 4 of the “sales”. At the least, PWCC created a platform that provided opportunity for fake sales.

Edited - I just went back and looked at my earlier posts, and I concede my second post could imply that PWCC directly faked sales. I did not mean that, although I certainly believe they were at least passively connected to the fake sales/at least complicit - I think 2 sales were fake and the both happened on PWCC’s platform. Here is what I think - PWCC extended credit to people, who pledged cards as collateral. PWCC borrowed (either as loan or equity) the funds it lent to others. Like all creditors, I expect PWCC expected to get paid back, but end borrowers likely started defaulting on their loans once the bubble burst. PWCC was owed money from people who lost their asses and owned greatly devalued cards, and PWCC’s immediate collateral was cards, held at PWCC, which likely also had been devalued. The cards were how PWCC would get paid back and, ultimately, how PWCC would pay back its creditor(s). Fake sales on PWCC’s platform almost certainly happened, and I believe the Mantle is an example of that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I have not accused Brett or Betsy of anything. What I have done is posted a series of Mantle SGC 7 alleged sales of the same card, including what Peter found, 4 of which sales are connected in some fashion to PWCC - either their auctions or their vault. Not REA, not Goldin, not any other house- rather PWCC, an outfit that has been involved (fact and documented) in numerous sketchy activities, got booted from eBay, and recently went belly up (from the top of the world). If the conclusion people are drawing is that PWCC or their old ownership was somehow connected with these “sales”, it’s tough to argue that. I have no direct proof. But where there is smoke….

Regardless, I don’t give a shit about PWCC or anyone there. That place imploded and I haven’t bought from them in years. They are history. Instead, I noticed the same mantle being sold 4 times in 2 years, each time for less, and I pointed that out and asked for theories. My theory is at least 2 of them (now 3) are fake sales intended to create inflated comps. I don’t know if it was PWCC, eBay, Brett/Betsy, other people, or all the above. But I do feel they were fake, nefarious, and PWCC is connected to 4 of the “sales”. At the least, PWCC created a platform that provided opportunity for fake sales.

Let us also not forget they were the target of a federal investigation and initially were cooperating meaning they were going to plead guilty. Let us also not forget they sold Moser's cards for well over a decade. As for me, I was not accusing them specifically with respect to the 900K sale, rather my remark about Betsy was sarcasm about one of Travis' earlier posts.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Edited - I just went back and looked at my earlier posts, and I concede my second post could imply that PWCC directly faked sales. I did not mean that, although I certainly believe they were at least passively connected to the fake sales/at least complicit - I think 2 sales were fake and the both happened on PWCC’s platform. Here is what I think - PWCC extended credit to people, who pledged cards as collateral. PWCC borrowed (either as loan or equity) the funds it lent to others. Like all creditors, I expect PWCC expected to get paid back, but end borrowers likely started defaulting on their loans once the bubble burst. PWCC was owed money from people who lost their asses and owned greatly devalued cards, and PWCC’s immediate collateral was cards, held at PWCC, which likely also had been devalued. The cards were how PWCC would get paid back and, ultimately, how PWCC would pay back its creditor(s). Fake sales on PWCC’s platform almost certainly happened, and I believe the Mantle is an example of that.

I just disproved this theory a few posts back though. This fake $550k sale (which was never paid for, since PWCC does not list in on their own website) is from March 2021, and the plot I showed earlier shows that was the absolute peak of the market. PWCC was not in any financial distress at all during this time. They didn't layoff employees and sell to Fanatics until May 2023.