Baseball Hall of Fame Rookie Cards Discussion

[Shankweather]

Tim Cathey to the rescue:

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

But I think the juice is generally not worth the squeeze with these, as far as determining rookie cards. Except for team changes, I think the simple solution is to consider all T206 subjects to have 1909 release dates. I don't think most people have a desire to declare Piedmont 150s rookie cards but Piedmont 350-460s not.

EDIT: But it does look like Chance's red portrait card was the first to be released. I know we're settled on E107 being Chance's rookie card (or W600 if you're into that), but if T206 was his rookie card, do we think there would be support for only putting the label on the red portrait? It first was released in 1909 but the batting and yellow portrait cards not until 1910.

[bcbgcbrcb]

T206 would never be a Chance rookie card.

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

T206 would never be a Chance rookie card.

I did say "if" Phil.

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

If T206s had been Chance's first cards then yes, the 150 series red portrait would be a rookie card and the 350 series yellow portrait would not be. Similarly, we know that Tris Speaker didn't have a T206 until 1910, so if he did have any cards released in 1909 or earlier the T206 should not be considered a rookie card.

Technically I see how all that is true.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

Tim Cathey to the rescue:

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

But I think the juice is generally not worth the squeeze with these, as far as determining rookie cards. Except for team changes, I think the simple solution is to consider all T206 subjects to have 1909 release dates. I don't think most people have a desire to declare Piedmont 150s rookie cards but Piedmont 350-460s not.

EDIT: But it does look like Chance's red portrait card was the first to be released. I know we're settled on E107 being Chance's rookie card (or W600 if you're into that), but if T206 was his rookie card, do we think there would be support for only putting the label on the red portrait? It first was released in 1909 but the batting and yellow portrait cards not until 1910.

If T206s had been Chance's first cards then yes, the 150 series red portrait would be a rookie card and the 350 series yellow portrait would not be. Similarly, we know that Tris Speaker didn't have a T206 until 1910, so if he did have any cards released in 1909 or earlier the T206 should not be considered a rookie card.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

If T206s had been Chance's first cards then yes, the 150 series red portrait would be a rookie card and the 350 series yellow portrait would not be. Similarly, we know that Tris Speaker didn't have a T206 until 1910, so if he did have any cards released in 1909 or earlier the T206 should not be considered a rookie card.

And it would only be the 150 red portrait, the 350 red portrait would not be.

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by steve B

And it would only be the 150 red portrait, the 350 red portrait would not be.

If Piedmont 150 and Piedmont 350 both came out in 1909, wouldn't they both be rookie cards?

[Shankweather]

I'm sure this already exists somewhere, but I made a master list of all the T206 sets with all the variations, using the data available on T206resource.com. With the series, print group, and year for each card. Only 5,694 cards to build the master set! Hal Chase has the most combinations of any single player at 81.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Next up: Old Judge!

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

If Piedmont 150 and Piedmont 350 both came out in 1909, wouldn't they both be rookie cards?

They did not. Series 150 came out in 1909 and Series 350 came out in 1910 (series 460 in 1911).

[Shankweather]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

They did not. Series 150 came out in 1909 and Series 350 came out in 1910 (series 460 in 1911).

According to Tim Cathey they started printing print group 1 with 350 backs in 1909.

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

According to Tim Cathey they started printing print group 1 with 350 backs in 1909.

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

It’s unclear, but there is support that 150/350 subjects were released in 1909. That said, it stands to reason that series 150 came before 350, otherwise, why distinguish. Regardless, I don’t want to bicker - you and I have fundamentally different ideas of what qualifies as a rookie, so we will just add this to that list. Regardless of when the t206 red chance came out, it is 0% NOT his rookie.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

According to Tim Cathey they started printing print group 1 with 350 backs in 1909.

https://t206resource.com/Print%20Group%201.html

Thats because the print groups are very generalized. The subjects in print group 1 started in 1909, I have doubts about the 350s actually starting in 1910. (Or maybe I have forgotten, there's so D*** much to remember. )

At any rate, there's The 150 only cards, the real print group 1
Then what I'd call 1A, the ones that started in 150.
Then what I'd call 1B The subjects that carried over from 150-350 Often with subtle or not changes in the masters used.

Add in incidentals, like Magie/Magee which may not have been direct replacements, as Magie has several small but identifiable differences that coincide with back flaws that Magee doesn't have.

And at least some 150's came three different ways, indicating three different press runs even within the 150s.

At least one, possibly a small group of 350's is possibly because of the use of leftover sheet fronts from 150 production.

I think of the Published print groups as a general introduction, one that most people can grasp pretty easily. The expanded info is there, and still open for some debate.

So were all 350's 1910? Maybe not
Were some 350's 1909? Maybe?
The carry overs between 150 and 350 that have differences, have almost no cards that should be 150 but with a 350 back.

What makes for a rookie card is simple compared to those.