Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

You and I always seem to have different opinions on the black and brown Lenox Mike. There are different shades of brown and the brown Lenox that you posted is the shade that stands out the most by far over the other shades.

I agree with what Greg said about the black not fading to a brown look I've also never seen a black on any T cards fade to a point that it appears brown.

The brown Lenox are so scarce that there are only a small sample for comparison. The T59 Sub Rosa's are very similar to the T206 Lenox that's why I used them for a reference in my earlier post.

The scans and what you're viewing them on can effect how they appear. My computer monitor is more accurate than the tablet I sometimes use but even my computer monitor doesn't reflect what they actually look like in hand.

I have around 20 brown Sub Rosa's in varying shades of brown that are very similar to the brown Lenox and they all clearly stand out from the 300 black Sub Rosa's that I have.

The Top row in this scan are all brown and the bottom row are black. The factory 129 in the top left is what I would consider a faded brown look and the Factory 649 bottom row 2nd from the left has a faded black look.

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[G1911]

^ Fantastic example of how black fades on the T cards. Even the right chemical combination doesn't create the same brown that brown back cards have; it's more of a grayish browning.

If fading created brown, we'd see brown T218 Mecca's and dozens of other sets using black backs from the same production facilities at the same time. We don't; only a very small subset of T cards is possible to find with brown backs, precisely because they are a truly different back.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

Out of the dozens of black backs on the ATC 1909-1912 project, only a few are found in this coloring. If they were not printed this way and are faded back, why is it only a small subset of very specific backs? And how do I create this fading effect?

I feel comfortable it is a different back because of the subsets and that it is the solitary alleged faded color I cannot seem to make myself doctoring beater cards for research.