Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

jayshum · #1 10-05-2023, 06:16 AM

Most of the focus has been on the full set lot closing so Powell couldn't raise his bid on it once the total of the individual lots went above it, but even if the lot stayed open, he may not have been able to raise his bid because he was bidding against himself.

Wouldn't the same thing have happened with the individual lots? If the high bid for the total set lot had been higher then the combined total of the individual lots, if someone was the high bidder on one of the individual lots and wanted to increase their bid so the individual lots total was higher, they probably wouldn't have been able to either because they would also be bidding against themselves.

I've never bid in auctions like this but several have commented about other AHs running similar types of auctions. Apparently, those have had all the lots linked together to show whether the set or the individual lots were ahead and everything stayed open until none of the lots had bids for a period of time, but how did they handle the issue of a current high bidder increasing their bid on an individual lot or the total set lot to change which side was winning? Were bidders able to increase their own high bid or did they have to talk to someone at the AH to get it done for them?

benjulmag · #2 10-05-2023, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

I've never bid in auctions like this but several have commented about other AHs running similar types of auctions. Apparently, those have had all the lots linked together to show whether the set or the individual lots were ahead and everything stayed open until none of the lots had bids for a period of time, but how did they handle the issue of a current high bidder increasing their bid on an individual lot or the total set lot to change which side was winning? Were bidders able to increase their own high bid or did they have to talk to someone at the AH to get it done for them?

If the software was set up properly, they would have been able to increase their own bids without contacting the AH.

raulus · #3 10-05-2023, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

If the software was set up properly, they would have been able to increase their own bids without contacting the AH.

Bingo. If Heritage allowed for “straight bids” instead of just “max bids”, then Powell could have kept bidding against himself and theoretically kept the set lot open. Or at least unilaterally raised the price on the set lot. Without that option, he was at the mercy of having a dance partner to keep bidding against him on the set lot, thereby enabling the set lot to keep rising in price above the price at which the individual lots were closing in the aggregate.

Some AHs, but not all, do allow for straight bids.

So I suppose there’s another strategy to take here if you only want to bid on the full set. Enter into an alliance with a buddy who will keep bidding against you on the set side so that you don’t get locked out. Just make sure you have a safe word for when it’s time to tap out!

oldjudge · #4 10-05-2023, 01:53 PM

One thing that hasn't been discussed but I wonder about is what if, when Powell was the high bidder but before he was locked out, he had put in say an $800k limit bid. My guess is that the auction software would have still recorded him as the winner than night, but what would HA have done the next morning when the dust settled? His high bid on the auction program would have been unchanged (since no one outbid him on the aggregate lot) but by his limit bid he expressed a willingness to bid higher than the sum of the individual bids. Would he have been declared the winner at one increment over the sum of the individual bids or would his limit bid have been ignored since it was never executed by the auction software? If he had done that he would have had even a stronger case to be the winner. BTW, this is just after the fact pontificating; I am not saying that Powell should have realized this at the time.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 10-05-2023, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

One thing that hasn't been discussed but I wonder about is what if, when Powell was the high bidder but before he was locked out, he had put in say an $800k limit bid. My guess is that the auction software would have still recorded him as the winner than night, but what would HA have done the next morning when the dust settled? His high bid on the auction program would have been unchanged (since no one outbid him on the aggregate lot) but by his limit bid he expressed a willingness to bid higher than the sum of the individual bids. Would he have been declared the winner at one increment over the sum of the individual bids or would his limit bid have been ignored since it was never executed by the auction software? If he had done that he would have had even a stronger case to be the winner. BTW, this is just after the fact pontificating; I am not saying that Powell should have realized this at the time.

In that scenario awfully hard for Heritage to say he didn't win.

raulus · #6 10-05-2023, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

One thing that hasn't been discussed but I wonder about is what if, when Powell was the high bidder but before he was locked out, he had put in say an $800k limit bid. My guess is that the auction software would have still recorded him as the winner than night, but what would HA have done the next morning when the dust settled? His high bid on the auction program would have been unchanged (since no one outbid him on the aggregate lot) but by his limit bid he expressed a willingness to bid higher than the sum of the individual bids. Would he have been declared the winner at one increment over the sum of the individual bids or would his limit bid have been ignored since it was never executed by the auction software? If he had done that he would have had even a stronger case to be the winner. BTW, this is just after the fact pontificating; I am not saying that Powell should have realized this at the time.

As I understand it, the mechanics here are simple. Perhaps excessively simple given the stakes.

Wait until all lots are closed. Then add up the final price on all the individual lots. Compare it to the final price on the set lot. Whichever is highest, wins.

If accurate, then putting in a higher max bid doesn’t do any good, unless someone actually triggers it by bidding against you ON YOUR SPECIFIC LOT.

Edited to add the all caps bit.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-05-2023, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

As I understand it, the mechanics here are simple. Perhaps excessively simple given the stakes.

Wait until all lots are closed. Then add up the final price on all the individual lots. Compare it to the final price on the set lot. Whichever is highest, wins.

If accurate, then putting in a higher max bid doesn’t do any good, unless someone actually triggers it by bidding against you.

Right, it would not have kicked in, but IMO it makes his case on the equities airtight. He had the highest bid, regardless whether the stupid software took it.

raulus · #8 10-05-2023, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, it would not have kicked in, but IMO it makes his case on the equities airtight. He had the highest bid, regardless whether the stupid software took it.

Agreed, with one caveat. Someone (or multiple someones) might have max bids on the individual lot side as well. For all we know, someone really wanted one of those individual lots, and put a max bid of a cool $1M on it.

perezfan · #9 10-05-2023, 02:30 PM

By this time, it seems everyone has given thoughtful input and advice� most of which is very astute. Wouldn�t it be nice if Heritage would post something here? They used to have a guy who posted here with regularity, mostly to promote upcoming auctions.

It just seems to me that they should post something here to clarify their stance, and perhaps more importantly to advise us with plans to remedy these types of problematic situations, moving forward. Is that asking too much?

GaryPassamonte · #10 10-05-2023, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

By this time, it seems everyone has given thoughtful input and advice� most of which is very astute. Wouldn�t it be nice if Heritage would post something here? They used to have a guy who posted here with regularity, mostly to promote upcoming auctions.

It just seems to me that they should post something here to clarify their stance, and perhaps more importantly to advise us with plans to remedy these types of problematic situations, moving forward. Is that asking too much?

No, it is not asking too much. There is a real problem with admitting mistakes in today's culture.

raulus · #11 10-05-2023, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

By this time, it seems everyone has given thoughtful input and advice… most of which is very astute. Wouldn’t it be nice if Heritage would post something here? They used to have a guy who posted here with regularity, mostly to promote upcoming auctions.

It just seems to me that they should post something here to clarify their stance, and perhaps more importantly to advise us with plans to remedy these types of problematic situations, moving forward. Is that asking too much?

Not going to defend HA here.

But I’m not sure they have much to gain by posting.

Just guessing at this part! -> Especially if they’re ignoring the whole situation. Perhaps because in their mind everything went down as planned. Might even be oblivious to the whole situation.

Now if they expected to make some changes because they learned something, then a post would be a better idea.

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