Seller sues dealer/buyer for a high flip

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's the sort of response I was hoping we would not have in this thread. I don't think there is a specific price point or percentage at which you can just say that the buyer is "one of those scumbag pieces of $#!t that gives the hobby a bad name" without a lot more information, and when you take that sort of attitude right off the bat, you kill off any conversation about it. I think there is room for reasonable people to differ on the issue. I could point out myriad real-world examples, from the entire web sites dedicated to thrift store finds, to the many transactions we see every day at shows and on eBay, to the guy who buys a raw card and gets a 10 from PSA on it. Everyone who buys a card thinks he got a deal and everyone who sells a card thinks he got a deal. They can't all be right. Every transaction is a zero-sum one: somebody wins, somebody loses. The nature of the win and loss depends on the metrics by which you measure. I've overpaid for the last card I needed to finish a tough set. It was worthwhile to me, even if, financially speaking, it was not an objectively "good" deal. It was a good deal for me so I can enjoy the set.

Not directed at you, but more generally, I don't get the knee-jerk hostility to someone seeing and making a great deal. This is a hyper-capitalist society and economy: the whole point of trade is to make money, to get the advantage. Excluding criminality or fraud--which no one thinks is OK--why is there a tendency to attack people who do it? I bought an item from a walk-in at a show and paid his ask because I thought it was really special. I put it into an auction, and it sold for 17X what I paid. Does that make me a scumbag piece of crap? At the same show, I picked up a card that later sold for a third of what I paid. Should I sue the seller? Not as far as I am concerned. That's how it goes.

Saying you had hoped we wouldn't have a response like mine, because it kills off any conversation, doesn't sit quite right with me.

Are you saying we should only write things in line with your beliefs and expectations? I don't think so. I've been on this forum for over a decade, and I've read many of your posts. I really don't have that image of you in my mind.

It wasn't a knee-jerk response, nor was it the issue of somebody making money. In your 17X example, I see nothing wrong with that. No, in my opinion, it doesn't make you a scumbag piece of crap. However, in this case, we're talking about a 28,000X flip. It's like finding a way to buy somebody's house for less than twenty bucks.

I wouldn't want to be the one who determines the line of demarcation between good deal and scumbag POS. However, this is definitely across any line I would consider reasonable.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Saying you had hoped we wouldn't have a response like mine, because it kills off any conversation, doesn't sit quite right with me.

Are you saying we should only write things in line with your beliefs and expectations? I don't think so. I've been on this forum for over a decade, and I've read many of your posts. I really don't have that image of you in my mind.

It wasn't a knee-jerk response, nor was it the issue of somebody making money. In your 17X example, I see nothing wrong with that. No, in my opinion, it doesn't make you a scumbag piece of crap. However, in this case, we're talking about a 28,000X flip. It's like finding a way to buy somebody's house for less than twenty bucks.

I wouldn't want to be the one who determines the line of demarcation between good deal and scumbag POS. However, this is definitely across any line I would consider reasonable.

So how many X does a flip change from good to scumbag? And are there other factors that change that?

I've had one that was more than 2400x,

Saw a plate in a thrift shop, priced at 25 cents (typical at the time)
It was restaurant china, with a named restaurant, and a cactus motif. Looked pretty cool, and I figured as a random restaurant china plate maybe $10 on ebay. Apparently it was a rare pattern from Fred Harvey restaurants. Total surprise to me once I started looking it up. The small size was the only other one I could find, and that went for $50. Put it on Ebay, and it sold for over 600...

Plenty of other examples of stuff like this.

Dealer I know bought a postcard from a dollar box. Thought it was designed by Mucha. It was.
It was also not listed in the book about his postcards.
He sold it to a guy he knew who collected them for 500. (Buyers price, this dealer often does that, just hands you stuff he got for you and asks how much you'd pay.)
That guy sold it to a bigger dealer for 1000....
It ended up in a major european auction and sold for 10,000.

Should eveyone all the way back to the dollar box guy get a bigger cut?

I have a lot of stuff in my collections that were things dealers and others didn't recognize as anything at all special.

Of course, I also have a bunch of stuff that I took a chance on that isn't anything special.

[drcy]

French law and views may be different than American. This case may have no bearing on that Honus Wagner bought in Iowa City.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by steve B

So how many X does a flip change from good to scumbag? And are there other factors that change that?

I've had one that was more than 2400x,

Saw a plate in a thrift shop, priced at 25 cents (typical at the time)
It was restaurant china, with a named restaurant, and a cactus motif. Looked pretty cool, and I figured as a random restaurant china plate maybe $10 on ebay. Apparently it was a rare pattern from Fred Harvey restaurants. Total surprise to me once I started looking it up. The small size was the only other one I could find, and that went for $50. Put it on Ebay, and it sold for over 600...

Plenty of other examples of stuff like this.

Dealer I know bought a postcard from a dollar box. Thought it was designed by Mucha. It was.
It was also not listed in the book about his postcards.
He sold it to a guy he knew who collected them for 500. (Buyers price, this dealer often does that, just hands you stuff he got for you and asks how much you'd pay.)
That guy sold it to a bigger dealer for 1000....
It ended up in a major european auction and sold for 10,000.

Should eveyone all the way back to the dollar box guy get a bigger cut?

I have a lot of stuff in my collections that were things dealers and others didn't recognize as anything at all special.

Of course, I also have a bunch of stuff that I took a chance on that isn't anything special.

What if the market moved because I got lucky when I bought it?

Real life example: I bought a 1951B PSA 8 Mays for $48k in June 2020. A few months later, another example sold at auction for $300k+. If I sold mine a few months later, should I go back to the seller and share some of the sales proceeds?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

What if the market moved because I got lucky when I bought it?

Real life example: I bought a 1951B PSA 8 Mays for $48k in June 2020. A few months later, another example sold at auction for $300k+. If I sold mine a few months later, should I go back to the seller and share some of the sales proceeds?

Plainly no. You paid an appropriate price at the time.

[Shemp]

Nobody seems to have brought up the biggest issue.....was this mask stolen from Gabon years ago? If so, shouldn't this mask be returned to the rightful owners?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Shemp

Nobody seems to have brought up the biggest issue.....was this mask stolen from Gabon years ago? If so, shouldn't this mask be returned to the rightful owners?

I'll bet the original owners are dead.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Shemp

Nobody seems to have brought up the biggest issue.....was this mask stolen from Gabon years ago? If so, shouldn't this mask be returned to the rightful owners?

Only if you want to give back this country to the people who were conquered by the English/Americans.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Only if you want to give back this country to the people who were conquered by the English/Americans.

Don’t forget the Dutch, the Spanish, and the French!

Probably a few others mixed in too.

[Prof]

Originally Posted by Shemp

Nobody seems to have brought up the biggest issue.....was this mask stolen from Gabon years ago? If so, shouldn't this mask be returned to the rightful owners?

I'm glad someone brought finally brought this up. Regardless of whether you think the guy who spent $157 on it did so un/ethically, the macro ethics angle is very interesting to me.

Although the 'owners' would be long dead, it sure sounds like an extremely significant cultural relic that would be best to sell to/return to Gabon for display in a museum... especially since the article mentions that the French guy's relative was a freaking colonialist governor.



The couple claims this guy essentially stole the mask from them, and then they turned down 300k from the guy after the sale, presumably because they want all of the money for themselves.

Man, that's a startling amount of hypocrisy to me when your ancestor most likely took it himself as a spoil of oppressive colonialism.

If anyone deserves the money or mask, it'd be the people of Gabon.

Sounds like a bit of Gabonese karma finally swinging back to the family to me.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Prof

I'm glad someone brought finally brought this up. Regardless of whether you think the guy who spent $157 on it did so un/ethically, the macro ethics angle is very interesting to me.

Although the 'owners' would be long dead, it sure sounds like an extremely significant cultural relic that would be best to sell to/return to Gabon for display in a museum... especially since the article mentions that the French guy's relative was a freaking colonialist governor.



The couple claims this guy essentially stole the mask from them, and then they turned down 300k from the guy after the sale, presumably because they want all of the money for themselves.

Man, that's a startling amount of hypocrisy to me when your ancestor most likely took it himself as a spoil of oppressive colonialism.

If anyone deserves the money or mask, it'd be the people of Gabon.

Sounds like a bit of Gabonese karma finally swinging back to the family to me.

This chapter seems like a bit of a leap.

The mask is stated to be from the nineteenth century and used by a secret society that functioned until 1920, acquired by an 88 year old man's grandfather likely during the late 19th century. It's the obscurity of the origin and the materials causing value here, not age. It was likely damn near new when he received it.

Why to do we have to place an imaginary story of an oppressive Indiana Jones in a pith hat burning the village and children for their prized good luck charm when a more likely story was he probably bought it at a street market as souvenir junk at the time? Also, Gabon is easily one of the richest countries in Africa due to an incredible wealth of rare resources, it is not a bad place to be and rather lovely. If they felt in the slightest that they wanted the item, they could easily add a legal team that was outstanding...they don't give a flying f.

This is one of those rewrites in history that we love to do in modern times. Perhaps we don't assume the great evils of everyone and instead think progress would have never happened if not for the actions of the past, both good and bad.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by raulus

What if the market moved because I got lucky when I bought it?

Real life example: I bought a 1951B PSA 8 Mays for $48k in June 2020. A few months later, another example sold at auction for $300k+. If I sold mine a few months later, should I go back to the seller and share some of the sales proceeds?

Having bought most of my good cards back in the 1980's, I'd be in serious trouble.