Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

[MVSNYC]

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, so you're saying that Doyle is Brown and mislabeled? Is it yours?

It's not mine mike, as I stated in post #18 if the scans are accurate it's definitely brown the Doyle is on the left in that post even the ink in the finger print from one of the ALC workers looks brown.

It's hard to tell in some scans but in hand it's easy. Both of the Brown Lenox that I've owned were the darker versions and they are the hardest to tell with
scans but in hand it was easy to see that they are brown.

Sometimes PSA has a hard time deciding and maybe it depends on what that particular grader sees. This Willis was originally graded as brown and then they changed it to black. I think they had it right the first time (also depending on the accuracy of the scan). The funny part is it sold for $7800 in the brown label holder and $14,400 in the black label holder.

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Here's the Willis on the left next to a black Lenox from the same auction

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[MVSNYC]

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's a Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

You and I always seem to have different opinions on the black and brown Lenox Mike. There are different shades of brown and the brown Lenox that you posted is the shade that stands out the most by far over the other shades.

I agree with what Greg said about the black not fading to a brown look I've also never seen a black on any T cards fade to a point that it appears brown.

The brown Lenox are so scarce that there are only a small sample for comparison. The T59 Sub Rosa's are very similar to the T206 Lenox that's why I used them for a reference in my earlier post.

The scans and what you're viewing them on can effect how they appear. My computer monitor is more accurate than the tablet I sometimes use but even my computer monitor doesn't reflect what they actually look like in hand.

I have around 20 brown Sub Rosa's in varying shades of brown that are very similar to the brown Lenox and they all clearly stand out from the 300 black Sub Rosa's that I have.

The Top row in this scan are all brown and the bottom row are black. The factory 129 in the top left is what I would consider a faded brown look and the Factory 649 bottom row 2nd from the left has a faded black look.

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[G1911]

^ Fantastic example of how black fades on the T cards. Even the right chemical combination doesn't create the same brown that brown back cards have; it's more of a grayish browning.

If fading created brown, we'd see brown T218 Mecca's and dozens of other sets using black backs from the same production facilities at the same time. We don't; only a very small subset of T cards is possible to find with brown backs, precisely because they are a truly different back.

[MVSNYC]

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Hi Pat, it's ok that we disagree on this, all good, plenty of mutual respect.

I just (personally) see faded black in the Sub Rosa's and the T206 Willis. It seems like a lot them have warm toning on the actual paper stock, plus some faded (black) ink, which, when combined, could give a slightly warm black color, leaning towards a brown black (espresso) color. But I'm just not seeing brown ink there.

There's only one Sub Rosa I'm seeing that may possibly be brown ink, and that's the example in post 13 with the severely rounded corners. The rest I just think are faded black.

Out of the dozens of black backs on the ATC 1909-1912 project, only a few are found in this coloring. If they were not printed this way and are faded back, why is it only a small subset of very specific backs? And how do I create this fading effect?

I feel comfortable it is a different back because of the subsets and that it is the solitary alleged faded color I cannot seem to make myself doctoring beater cards for research.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat, just judging by those scans, I think the Willis is faded black. Just my 2 cents.

Here's my Black Lenox next to my Brown example.

Hey Mike, can you post a scan of the Schlei Lenox that you picked up in the spring REA auction with these two.

[MVSNYC]

I’ll post the scans later tonight. Watching a Halloween movie with the kids.

[MVSNYC]

Here's the Schlei I got recently. Very bold back.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Here's the Schlei I got recently. Very bold back.

That's brown Mike.