Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

[FrankWakefield]

Ted, Pat, double thanks to both of you.


As to the printer failing to change the ink for the backs... I'd think it was a conscious decision. It's a pain to scrape the previous ink out of the pan, and then clean everything. And then put different ink in there. It would be easier, take less time, and slightly more cost effective to use what brown ink you had in the pan, and then add black as the brown was used. There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

Oh my God, this may be true but don't get this started. By next week every seller of a slightly faded black Lenox on eBay will be claiming that their card is 30% Brown Lenox.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think both Ted and Pat are massive assets. Plus, it’s fun to read the bickering something. Keep on posting guys!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I think both Ted and Pat are massive assets. Plus, it’s fun to read the bickering something. Keep on posting guys!

Agreed, both are doing great work.

The bickering is important. If an idea can't stand up to some bickering it's probably not right anyway.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Ted, Pat, double thanks to both of you.


As to the printer failing to change the ink for the backs... I'd think it was a conscious decision. It's a pain to scrape the previous ink out of the pan, and then clean everything. And then put different ink in there. It would be easier, take less time, and slightly more cost effective to use what brown ink you had in the pan, and then add black as the brown was used. There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

Hi Frank,

I think for the most part it has to do with when they were printed and/or what facility they were printed at. I think the Sub Rosa's in the T59 set which were printed in the same timeframe as the T206's are a good comparison to the T206 Lenox.

The color variations in the T59 set is something that is discussed on a regular basis among those that collect them. Many people think most if not all of the questionable color variations are the result of fading or a chemical reaction. The more research I do on the Sub Rosa's the more I think the color variations found on that particular back are the result of different inks.

I still have a lot more research to do on it but almost all of the Brown variations that I have seen come from two out of a possible 14 different factory and series combinations.

Factory 129 is found on series 2, 3, and 4 and all of the brown backs that I have seen are from the 4th series.

img869.jpg

Factory 229 is found on all 4 series and all but one possible brown series 3 that I have seen the rest are from the series 2

img870.jpg

img656 - Copy.jpg

Factory 606 is also found on all 4 series and I've yet to see any brown factory 606 backs.

img871.jpg

Factory 649 is found on series 1 and 2 only and to me most of these have a faded grayish tint to them but I have yet to see one of these that look brown to me.

img875.jpg

As I stated above I still have a lot more research to do on these but if the brown found on this back was do to fading in my opinion they would be found on more than two specific backs and factories.

[G1911]

I believe brown to only exist on subsections of 129 and 229 in the later series. Pretty confident 606 and 649 do not come this way, with 649 being a 'lighter black'.

Black doesn't normally fade to brown on these T cards - for example, Recruit black T59 is one of the most common of all T card combinations. They don't really come in brown though, despite allegations they do. I've had thousands of them, not a single brown. I've spent years scouring T68 black RB backs and can't locate a single brown one that has also been alleged to exist. Black can create a brownish appearance from certain uncommon chemical reactions, but I cannot make black T cards fade to brown via light in my experimenting. If a back is routinely found brown, I feel comfortable behaving as if it was printed a different color; a single or very small number of one offs, particularly if bearing glue damage, are probably altered blacks.

Just my 2 cents, probably worth a penny.

[tedzan]

To reiterate...regarding my connection of the Brown LENOX cards to AB 460 (and UZIT) cards....it goes back to my discovery of the Mutually-Exclusive factor
of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 Series. I presented this phenomena on Net54 circa 2010. Since pictures speak louder than "1000 words", illustrated here
are the 63 subjects in their respective group.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

. . .
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


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Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460


Therefore, I maintain that the brown LENOX subjects were (accidently) being printed ONLY during American Lithograph's press run(s) of Group B T206's.

I have predicted correctly more than 12 brown LENOX cards since I came up with this theory.

Let us see how long my Batting Average will continue to remain "1.000"


TED Z

T206 Reference
.




.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

To reiterate...regarding my connection of the Brown LENOX cards to AB 460 (and UZIT) cards....it goes back to my discovery of the Mutually-Exclusive factor
of the 63 subjects in the 350/460 Series. I presented this phenomena on Net54 circa 2010. Since pictures speak louder than "1000 words", illustrated here
are the 63 subjects in their respective group.

Group A of the 350/460 series includes 35 subjects printed and issued with these four 460-type backs (circa..late 1910 > early 1911).

. . .
Factory #25 VA ......................... Factory#42 N.C.


Conversely, these 35 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....UZIT


Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




Group B of the 350/460 series includes 28 subjects printed and issued with these two 460-type backs (circa..Feb-Mar 1911).

.


Conversely, these 28 subjects were NOT PRINTED with.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 25.. SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory 42.. red HINDU.. BROAD LEAF 460


Therefore, I maintain that the brown LENOX subjects were (accidently) being printed ONLY during American Lithograph's press run(s) of Group B T206's.

I have predicted correctly more than 12 brown LENOX cards since I came up with this theory.

Let us see how long my Batting Average will continue to remain "1.000"


TED Z

T206 Reference
.




.

With many assists from "modified scan" and "corrected typo".

Here's a brown Lenox from group A

Doyle.jpg

Doyle back.jpg

[MVSNYC]

Pat,

Is that a Brown Lenox or Black? Labeled Black.

Here's my example...

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Pat,

Is that a Brown Lenox or Black? Labeled Black.

Here's my example...

If the scans are accurate it is 100% brown Mike. Some scans/pictures can make a black Lenox look like it's possibly brown that's why if I can I try to compare it to another Lenox from the same seller/auction.

Here's the Doyle compared to A black Lenox from the same auction. Both PSA and SGC have incorrectly labeled Brown Lenox as black or generic Lenox that were eventually corrected to brown.

Doyle back - Copy.jpg