PSA Card Guarantee

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I was accepting the hypothetical for sake of argument. I agree that in most cases there would be ways to determine the card was trimmed even without before photos.

I don't understand why so many people adhere to this idea that all (or even most) trimmed cards are identifiable as such, and that any trimmed card that passes through grading represents a failure to detect something that should have been detected by an expert grader. It's simply not true, and anyone making such a claim is doing so based on hearsay, and not on experience.

Perhaps this belief stems from PSA posturing themselves as indeed being capable of doing precisely that and everyone just believing them, but it doesn't make it true. Unfortunately.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't understand why so many people adhere to this idea that all (or even most) trimmed cards are identifiable as such, and that any trimmed card that passes through grading represents a failure to detect something that should have been detected by an expert grader. It's simply not true, and anyone making such a claim is doing so based on hearsay, and not on experience.

Perhaps this belief stems from PSA posturing themselves as indeed being capable of doing precisely that and everyone just believing them, but it doesn't make it true. Unfortunately.

IMO the overwhelming majority of trimmed cards can be conclusively shown to be trimmed if forensically examined. Conversely, IMO, the overwhelming majority of trimmed cards cannot be shown to be trimmed by visual examination alone when altered by an experienced card doctor.

Inasmuch as (to my knowledge) PSA undertakes only visual examinations, the opinion it gives to any card where an uptick in grade equates to a significant bump to its market value, unless that card has documented provenance to a period before card doctors existed or there was no economic incentive to trim (or otherwise alter), is WORTHLESS.

So, the sin PSA is guilty of is not a failure to detect something that they could have detected, but their representation that a numerical grade gives a collector a reasonable assurance the card has not been trimmed.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

So, the sin PSA is guilty of is not a failure to detect something that they could have detected, but their representation that a numerical grade gives a collector a reasonable assurance the card has not been trimmed.

Absolutely. Well said. And just one more reason why I hold SGC in much higher regard than PSA. At least SGC openly admits that some alterations simply cannot be detected. PSA refuses to even address the issue and continues to pretend as though they are fully capable.

[perezfan]

“So, the sin PSA is guilty of is not a failure to detect something that they could have detected, but their representation that a numerical grade gives a collector a reasonable assurance the card has not been trimmed.”

And wasn’t this pretty much the entire premise for their existence?

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

And wasn’t this pretty much the entire premise for their existence?

It was certainly one of the value adds they claimed to bring. A bit ironic perhaps. However, it is still true that despite their countless mistakes, they are considerably better at detecting this stuff than all the lemmings that launch criticism their way. The hobby is definitely better off with grading services than without.

[benjulmag]

When PSA came into existence, the main concern at that time was not altered cards, but instead the subjective nature of grading. One person's 8 was another person's 5. I remember quite vividly a major dealer at one of the card shows displaying altered cards in an attempt to alert the hobby about what he felt was coming. This dealer did this precisely because of his concern the threat of alterations was not sufficiently appreciated. To go further, I find it hard to fathom that PSA would have given the "8 Wagner" a numerical grade if at that time their business model was focused around detecting alterations. PSA might be arrogant and stupid, but not that stupid. Despite what they or anybody else might say today, based on what I have been told by reliable people with first-hand information, they KNEW the card was altered. So, despite their desire for the publicity grading the card could give them, it would seem crazy to give Serial No. 00000001 to a card their principal grader believed to be trimmed (and which, IMO any grader with a modicum of competence could plainly see was trimmed) if they knew such a grade would directly contradict their business model.

To go further, I don't think anybody at that time could have forecast where we are today -- cards selling for levels exponentially greater than they did 30 years ago when a one grade uptick could add 5 to 6 figures of value. What all this tells me is that the next evolution in grading will be forensic grading. THAT would mean something in giving a reasonable assurance the card has not been altered. As to how or if that will ever happen, I don't know. But if I had the capital and inclination to start such a company, I would do it.

Skeptics will say such a company will never come into being because there will be no market demand for it, that the great majority of the hobby doesn't care if a card is trimmed as long as they get the number they want on the almighty slab. Well, that may be true now because there is no viable option. If there were, I would think an informed collector contemplating buying an expensive card that is a prime candidate for being trimmed would be economically incentivized to spend an additional few percent to get meaningful assurance the card is what it is purported to be.

[Snowman]

Today, I learned that the Wagner was not actually the first card PSA graded. That serial number was merely reserved and used for the Wagner, but there were many cards graded before it. According to Mike Baker, who would know, as he was the person who slabbed it. He had a great interview on Jeremy Lee's latest episode of Sports Cards Live where he goes into great depth on all things grading, including card alterations.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Today, I learned that the Wagner was not actually the first card PSA graded. That serial number was merely reserved and used for the Wagner, but there were many cards graded before it. According to Mike Baker, who would know, as he was the person who slabbed it. He had a great interview on Jeremy Lee's latest episode of Sports Cards Live where he goes into great depth on all things grading, including card alterations.

Thank you for this information. I changed "their FRST card graded" to Serial No. 00000001. The point remains, though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Today, I learned that the Wagner was not actually the first card PSA graded. That serial number was merely reserved and used for the Wagner, but there were many cards graded before it. According to Mike Baker, who would know, as he was the person who slabbed it. He had a great interview on Jeremy Lee's latest episode of Sports Cards Live where he goes into great depth on all things grading, including card alterations.

Bill Hughes was the head grader back then, See The Card by O'Keefe. Or ask Leon, who has talked to Hughes about slabbing the Wagner. Baker came later he was not there at the time.

[Leon]

The person who graded the Wagner told me that he couldn't see evidence of trimming, and without any other evidence to any alteration, gave it it's rightful grade of 8. I believe him.

I agree with your other assessments, Cory. Hope you are well...

edited to say, I have always believed detecting trimming is not close to foolproof or scientific (yet). Most graders, of any consequence, would agree.
.

Originally Posted by benjulmag

When PSA came into existence, the main concern at that time was not altered cards, but instead the subjective nature of grading. One person's 8 was another person's 5. I remember quite vividly a major dealer at one of the card shows displaying altered cards in an attempt to alert the hobby about what he felt was coming. This dealer did this precisely because of his concern the threat of alterations was not sufficiently appreciated. To go further, I find it hard to fathom that PSA would have given the "8 Wagner" a numerical grade if at that time their business model was focused around detecting alterations. PSA might be arrogant and stupid, but not that stupid. Despite what they or anybody else might say today, based on what I have been told by reliable people with first-hand information, they KNEW the card was altered. So, despite their desire for the publicity grading the card could give them, it would seem crazy to give Serial No. 00000001 to a card their principal grader believed to be trimmed (and which, IMO any grader with a modicum of competence could plainly see was trimmed) if they knew such a grade would directly contradict their business model.

To go further, I don't think anybody at that time could have forecast where we are today -- cards selling for levels exponentially greater than they did 30 years ago when a one grade uptick could add 5 to 6 figures of value. What all this tells me is that the next evolution in grading will be forensic grading. THAT would mean something in giving a reasonable assurance the card has not been altered. As to how or if that will ever happen, I don't know. But if I had the capital and inclination to start such a company, I would do it.

Skeptics will say such a company will never come into being because there will be no market demand for it, that the great majority of the hobby doesn't care if a card is trimmed as long as they get the number they want on the almighty slab. Well, that may be true now because there is no viable option. If there were, I would think an informed collector contemplating buying an expensive card that is a prime candidate for being trimmed would be economically incentivized to spend an additional few percent to get meaningful assurance the card is what it is purported to be.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

The person who graded the Wagner told me that he couldn't see evidence of trimming, and without any other evidence to any alteration, gave it it's rightful grade of 8. I believe him.

I agree with your other assessments, Cory. Hope you are well...

edited to say, I have always believed detecting trimming is not close to foolproof or scientific (yet). Most graders, of any consequence, would agree.
.

Leon,

I'm not going to name names, but that is not the information I have, which is first-hand info coming directly from those involved in inspecting the card when it was first submitted to PSA. Their head grader at the time was a friend of mine who I did a fair amount of business with. So if you were told something else, the story has changed.

From a common-sense perspective, I find it hard to believe that PSA could not know it was trimmed, the trimming IMO being so obvious to anyone experienced in T206s. In another thread about the card, one poster, an experienced card dealer, said he was offered the card at the Willow Grove show where Mastro took it immediately after purchasing it from Sevchuck, and he (and others) turned it down precisely because they thought it was trimmed.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Snowman

It was certainly one of the value adds they claimed to bring. A bit ironic perhaps. However, it is still true that despite their countless mistakes, they are considerably better at detecting this stuff than all the lemmings that launch criticism their way. The hobby is definitely better off with grading services than without.

Cannot let this one slide. Let's look at the definition of a "lemming"...

What does it mean to call someone a lemming?
A person who follows the will of others, especially in a mass movement, and heads straight into a situation or circumstance that is dangerous, stupid, or destructive: These lemmings that eat up conspiracy theories are so blinded by lies, they don't even see the cliff they're about to plummet over.

I would argue that definition applies flawlessly to the hypnotized/addicted TPG apologists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lemm...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Cannot let this one slide. Let's look at the definition of a "lemming"...

What does it mean to call someone a lemming?
A person who follows the will of others, especially in a mass movement, and heads straight into a situation or circumstance that is dangerous, stupid, or destructive: These lemmings that eat up conspiracy theories are so blinded by lies, they don't even see the cliff they're about to plummet over.

I would argue that definition applies flawlessly to the hypnotized/addicted TPG apologists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lemm...hrome&ie=UTF-8

To each their own, I suppose. I view the ignorant forum posters on Blowout who know nothing at all about grading cards, yet still launch criticisms at the TPGs for not catching trimmed edges as lemmings. These people would do no better than a monkey picking bananas at identifying trimmed cards if handed a stack for grading. But they read how easy it is on some forum, so they all just parrot the same information. Lemmings.