Hey, pennant guys

[MK]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Thanks Gary and Mike...

No midsize version that I am aware of. But there is an oversized version. Mastro had one before going defunct. The Reproduction Company made both the Cubs and Athletics vertical pennants in 3/4 and Oversize. For whatever reason, the Athletics pennant seems to outnumber the Cubs by about 5 to 1.

Thanks Mark. I thought I remembered two different sizes.

[bocca001]

This 1962 Giants pennant is... strange. It is on the rare side and I have some questions about quality control. I bought the one on the bottom a week or so ago. My other two have some damage and this new one wasn't all that expensive. The first one I ever bought has the spine bleed. The second one is pretty nice, but it has a hole in it and very strange wrinkles. When I saw the third one (on the bottom) listed on ebay, it looked like it might be in better condition. It turns out that the ebay pic presented the pennant in a very favorable light and it was a kind of dirty. I've managed to clean it pretty well with a wet cloth.

When I put them all together, I noticed a few things. This new one is clearly a slightly different color, even after you take condition into account. And it is smaller (height and length). And the material is kind of different for each pennant.

But the strangest thing to me is that all three have some differences among the batters (see how many differences you can spot). Seems very strange for what was likely a very briefly made pennant. Not sure if this happened because of the screens being copied at some point? There being multiple versions of the same screen(s)? Or.... just natural variation from pennant to pennant when humans are involved.

[ooo-ribay]

Very strange, Marc. To me, the size difference is not a huge mystery - just a different piece of felt. Same with any color difference.

The different graphics are harder to explain. As far as I know (or guess), this is a “one off” pennant by an unknown maker. I would think (guess) they only had one screen. This is obviously not the case, since two bats are outlined and one is filled in. Maybe Kyle has previously opined on how many pennants a maker could get from one screen? Are you able to lay one pennant on another, with a bright light behind, to see if the batter dimensions are actually different? If you can’t do that, do measurements confirm they are different?

Weird.

edit: to my eye, the two batters with the outlined bat look the same. Are they not the same? The filled in bat version has some other differences to the batter.

[Domer05]

This maker likely had multiple screens in use, at the time of production, to accelerate completion of this run given how little time they had to make these. That year, I believe, the Dodgers and Giants ended the season in a tie, forcing a best of three playoff. So, very little time to complete the job before game#1 of the world series, where these likely sold.

The differences in the artwork may just come down to the artist making multiple drawings, each with subtle differences, to test them to see what translated best on to felt. Apparently, they liked "hollow bat" variant best; but, could live with "solid bat"--especially if they could put his stencil into use and thereby speed things up??

[bocca001]

The smaller pennant actually has smaller graphics. The batter is smaller than on the other two (my close up pics of the three batters likely messed up the scale). And there are some slight differences in the two hollow batter versions. Thus, multiple versions of the screen seems to make the most sense.

How common might this have been for something made by Trench, or some other larger company? I also assume the screens wore out after some time?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

The smaller pennant actually has smaller graphics. The batter is smaller than on the other two

I should have been able to see that.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

How common might this have been for something made by Trench, or some other larger company? I also assume the screens wore out after some time?

It was common for makers to employ multiple screens (stencils) during each production run; especially when rushing to complete a big order. You had to. And the more colors the pennant required, the more screens/stencils you'd need.

The screens wouldn't exactly wear out from the force of the squeegee--they're pretty resilient. But occasionally, the mesh might tear or develop holes, e.g., if it wasn't stored properly.

When I was researching Salem Screen Printers, I learned a lot about these rush orders and the logistical nightmare that they presented manufacturers. Sometimes you only had 72 hours to print your merch; and then, you had to ship the product to the venue where the retail vendors needed it. To save time, Salem just contracted with local screen printing firms. Salem would develop the artwork; but the final print job might be performed by some Chicago-area firm, closer to Chicago Stadium, where the merch was headed in 1991.

I suspect that was done in the 1960s as well. This would seemingly explain some of the inconsistencies we've been seeing in the pennants made during these rush jobs.

Here's two more from the '63 world series by Trench Mfg. Co. No clue why the "1963" orientation was altered, but it was. Probably one was made/sold in Los Angeles and the other was made in Trench's Buffalo factory, then sold in the Bronx.

[ooo-ribay]

Maybe someone said "1 96 3 looks really awkward"?

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Maybe someone said "1 96 3 looks really awkward"?

Only to a Giant fan having to sit this one out.

Personally, I always preferred the version on the top.

Rick

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Domer05

It was common for makers to employ multiple screens (stencils) during each production run; especially when rushing to complete a big order. You had to. And the more colors the pennant required, the more screens/stencils you'd need.

The screens wouldn't exactly wear out from the force of the squeegee--they're pretty resilient. But occasionally, the mesh might tear or develop holes, e.g., if it wasn't stored properly.

When I was researching Salem Screen Printers, I learned a lot about these rush orders and the logistical nightmare that they presented manufacturers. Sometimes you only had 72 hours to print your merch; and then, you had to ship the product to the venue where the retail vendors needed it. To save time, Salem just contracted with local screen printing firms. Salem would develop the artwork; but the final print job might be performed by some Chicago-area firm, closer to Chicago Stadium, where the merch was headed in 1991.

I suspect that was done in the 1960s as well. This would seemingly explain some of the inconsistencies we've been seeing in the pennants made during these rush jobs.

Here's two more from the '63 world series by Trench Mfg. Co. No clue why the "1963" orientation was altered, but it was. Probably one was made/sold in Los Angeles and the other was made in Trench's Buffalo factory, then sold in the Bronx.

There was a very large “find” of these back in the late 80’s. Unfortunately, I cannot remember which one was found in quantity.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

This maker likely had multiple screens in use, at the time of production, to accelerate completion of this run given how little time they had to make these. That year, I believe, the Dodgers and Giants ended the season in a tie, forcing a best of three playoff. So, very little time to complete the job before game#1 of the world series, where these likely sold.

The differences in the artwork may just come down to the artist making multiple drawings, each with subtle differences, to test them to see what translated best on to felt. Apparently, they liked "hollow bat" variant best; but, could live with "solid bat"--especially if they could put his stencil into use and thereby speed things up??

Excellent info, as always.

I like how you said you “believe” the 1962 season ended in a tie between the Giants and Dodgers. You know damn well it did and you know how that turned out!

[Fballguy]

Anybody seen these before? They qualified for my "if you haven't seen it before, you should probably buy it" rule so I took a flier. Can't find any info. Even reached out to Net54's resident Japan baseball expert and he hadn't seen and couldn't find any additional detail. 27" long. Sadaharu Oh and Shigeo Nagashima.

[ooo-ribay]

^^^ Almost looks like the original 60 year old plastic!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Anybody seen these before? They qualified for my "if you haven't seen it before, you should probably buy it" rule so I took a flier. Can't find any info. Even reached out to Net54's resident Japan baseball expert and he hadn't seen and couldn't find any additional detail. 27" long. Sadaharu Oh and Shigeo Nagashima.

Wow, those are great!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Excellent info, as always.

I like how you said you “believe” the 1962 season ended in a tie between the Giants and Dodgers. You know damn well it did and you know how that turned out!

Yeah, it turned out about like the '51 season the previous decade....

...A Giant loss to the Yankees

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by bocca001

This 1962 Giants pennant is... strange. It is on the rare side and I have some questions about quality control. I bought the one on the bottom a week or so ago. My other two have some damage and this new one wasn't all that expensive. The first one I ever bought has the spine bleed. The second one is pretty nice, but it has a hole in it and very strange wrinkles. When I saw the third one (on the bottom) listed on ebay, it looked like it might be in better condition. It turns out that the ebay pic presented the pennant in a very favorable light and it was a kind of dirty. I've managed to clean it pretty well with a wet cloth.

When I put them all together, I noticed a few things. This new one is clearly a slightly different color, even after you take condition into account. And it is smaller (height and length). And the material is kind of different for each pennant.

But the strangest thing to me is that all three have some differences among the batters (see how many differences you can spot). Seems very strange for what was likely a very briefly made pennant. Not sure if this happened because of the screens being copied at some point? There being multiple versions of the same screen(s)? Or.... just natural variation from pennant to pennant when humans are involved.

Quality control must not have been great as with my version they literally cut another piece of screened felt and glued it on the pennant at the bottom. I don’t know what’s underneath, but most likely American League champions.

[Fballguy]

Much nicer in person. The plastic must've been 40-50 years old. Tape practically turned to dust.

PS...Shipped on 10/1, delivered on 10/7 from Japan. That's faster than mail from Canada.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Much nicer in person. The plastic must've been 40-50 years old. Tape practically turned to dust.

PS...Shipped on 10/1, delivered on 10/7 from Japan. That's faster than mail from Canada.

Beautiful! What size are they?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Beautiful! What size are they?

10.5" by 28" not including fringe.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

10.5" by 28" not including fringe.

Nice! Basically, “full size.” 👍

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Much nicer in person. The plastic must've been 40-50 years old. Tape practically turned to dust. PS...Shipped on 10/1, delivered on 10/7 from Japan. That's faster than mail from Canada.

Wow, what a difference! Are those real signatures?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Wow, what a difference! Are those real signatures?

They sure appear to be. Not sure how prevalent forgery is in Japan. I'm thinking not as likely as in the U.S.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

They sure appear to be. Not sure how prevalent forgery is in Japan. I'm thinking not as likely as in the U.S.

Send them to PSA!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Quality control must not have been great as with my version they literally cut another piece of screened felt and glued it on the pennant at the bottom. I don’t know what’s underneath, but most likely American League champions.

Even a Giants fan can appreciate how cool and rare that is!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

This 1962 Giants pennant is... strange. It is on the rare side and I have some questions about quality control. I bought the one on the bottom a week or so ago. My other two have some damage and this new one wasn't all that expensive. The first one I ever bought has the spine bleed. The second one is pretty nice, but it has a hole in it and very strange wrinkles. When I saw the third one (on the bottom) listed on ebay, it looked like it might be in better condition. It turns out that the ebay pic presented the pennant in a very favorable light and it was a kind of dirty. I've managed to clean it pretty well with a wet cloth.

When I put them all together, I noticed a few things. This new one is clearly a slightly different color, even after you take condition into account. And it is smaller (height and length). And the material is kind of different for each pennant.

But the strangest thing to me is that all three have some differences among the batters (see how many differences you can spot). Seems very strange for what was likely a very briefly made pennant. Not sure if this happened because of the screens being copied at some point? There being multiple versions of the same screen(s)? Or.... just natural variation from pennant to pennant when humans are involved.

What’s peculiar about these is that the style is unlike any other pennants I’ve seen. Closest to Keezer, I guess, but I’m not sure it’s them. Can you post a pic of the rear stitching?

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

What’s peculiar about these is that the style is unlike any other pennants I’ve seen. Closest to Keezer, I guess, but I’m not sure it’s them. Can you post a pic of the rear stitching?

I don’t think they’re Keezer. I think they may be attributed to someone who was in the pennant business for one month in 1962.