Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

[Rhotchkiss]

Congrats Aaron. Those are amazing looking pieces and Baker is a great one to own

[Powell]

I bid for the set in extended hours. The bid said I was winning. I waited 30 minutes and no bids. The website said I won the set, same this morning and later that morning it said I lost. I understood that the bid on the set had to be higher than the total of individual lots. I didn’t understand I had to add up all the individual lots myself in the middle of the night. Other auction houses tell you if the individual lots are ahead. I would have bid higher had I known. If it got too high there were individual cards I would have gone for. I felt misled and deserved better treatment after bidding more than 600K for the entire set and not learning until late morning that I “lost.”. The consignor lost too. It’s a bad day for me, for Heritage and the consignor — but a good one for the good people who ended up being deemed high bidder on the individual lots as I had no warning I needed to bid again and the website said otherwise.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Powell

I bid for the set in extended hours. The bid said I was winning. I waited 30 minutes and no bids. The website said I won the set, same this morning and later that morning it said I lost. I understood that the bid on the set had to be higher than the total of individual lots. I didn’t understand I had to add up all the individual lots myself in the middle of the night. Other auction houses tell you if the individual lots are ahead. I would have bid higher had I known. If it got too high there were individual cards I would have gone for. I felt misled and deserved better treatment after bidding more than 600K for the entire set and not learning until late morning that I “lost.”. The consignor lost too. It’s a bad day for me, for Heritage and the consignor — but a good one for the good people who ended up being deemed high bidder on the individual lots as I had no warning I needed to bid again and the website said otherwise.

That's tragic. I was curious how that was going to work, obviously it didn't and that's unfortunate for such a historical offering and you as a bidder. Not only were you willing to buy the whole set but because of the format you don't even walk away with one. Hindsight, but an explanation on the process either on the website or in private with high dollar bidders like yourself would have been helpful.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Powell

I bid for the set in extended hours. The bid said I was winning. I waited 30 minutes and no bids. The website said I won the set, same this morning and later that morning it said I lost. I understood that the bid on the set had to be higher than the total of individual lots. I didn’t understand I had to add up all the individual lots myself in the middle of the night. Other auction houses tell you if the individual lots are ahead. I would have bid higher had I known. If it got too high there were individual cards I would have gone for. I felt misled and deserved better treatment after bidding more than 600K for the entire set and not learning until late morning that I “lost.”. The consignor lost too. It’s a bad day for me, for Heritage and the consignor — but a good one for the good people who ended up being deemed high bidder on the individual lots as I had no warning I needed to bid again and the website said otherwise.

They didn't call you? That sucks big time. Would've been on the phone to make sure, but hindsight is always just that.

[Jay Wolt]

Aaron that's a fantastic looking Baker, Congrats!

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Powell

I bid for the set in extended hours. The bid said I was winning. I waited 30 minutes and no bids. The website said I won the set, same this morning and later that morning it said I lost. I understood that the bid on the set had to be higher than the total of individual lots. I didn’t understand I had to add up all the individual lots myself in the middle of the night. Other auction houses tell you if the individual lots are ahead. I would have bid higher had I known. If it got too high there were individual cards I would have gone for. I felt misled and deserved better treatment after bidding more than 600K for the entire set and not learning until late morning that I “lost.”. The consignor lost too. It’s a bad day for me, for Heritage and the consignor — but a good one for the good people who ended up being deemed high bidder on the individual lots as I had no warning I needed to bid again and the website said otherwise.

I watched this unfold last night and was cringing for the high bidder on the entire set lot. Heritage screwed this up so badly it was impossible to believe. Not only, as Powell said, could you not tell from bidding on the various BG lots as to whether the individual lots or the full set was ahead in the bidding, but the full set high bidder couldn't bid any more once no one bid for 30 mins on the full set lot -- the lot was closed. So Powell had to watch as the individual lots were still allowed to take more bids, making it impossible for him to raise his full set bid and defeat the cumulative total of the 12 individual lots. If I was the leader on the Cobb card, but because the cumulative total of the 12 lots was 10K less than the full set bid -- which was now closed -- I would have just bid up the remaining open individual lots in order for the total of the 12 lots to surpass the amount of the full set high bid. Which is exactly what happened: the Rabbit Maranville card received late action solely to allow the individual lots to surpass the full set bid. I'm astounded that Heritage could have screwed this up so badly.

[Powell]

They did not call me. I went to bed with my account saying I won. No one called
me. I consigned my “Wall of Cards” T206 set to Heritage and have bought countless treasures from Heritage. In the morning my account said I won. I learned from this board that I “lost” and I checked again on my Heritage account it changed from won to lost. No one called me. Now I learn after I was locked out on the set and went to sleep with the web saying I won they let individual lots bid to beat me with no chance to compete. I’m disgusted with the shabby way I was treated and the consignor should be livid.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Powell

They did not call me. I went to bed with my account saying I won. No one called
me. I consigned my “Wall of Cards” T206 set to Heritage and have bought countless treasures from Heritage. In the morning my account said I won. I learned from this board that I “lost” and I checked again on my Heritage account it changed from won to lost. No one called me. Now I learn after I was locked out on the set and went to sleep with the web saying I won they let individual lots bid to beat me with no chance to compete. I’m disgusted with the shabby way I was treated and the consignor should be livid.

I thought it was kind of an auction house etiquette to call and confirm a bidder is "out" on a lot of this magnitude. But maybe that isn't the reality, just what I figured.
Sorry this happened to you.

[molenick]

That is horrible. I was trying to figure out a way to make this work for both the set and the individual cards where there is lot-by-lot closing.

The only way I can think of is that the timer for the set and all the cards in the set has to be the same.

If a bid is placed on the set or any card, the timer resets for every card in the set and the full set.

It sounds annoying but I think that is the only way it is fair to both the set bidder (as we have seen) and the individual card bidders (because they could bid after their lot would have normally closed if they could now "beat" the set based on later bids on other cards).

Also, each lot involved needs to clearly state if the set or the individual cards are winning and what the aggregate individual total is vs. the full set bid.

I may not be explaining this well, and there may be a better way, but that's the only one I could come up with.

[Powell]

I have consigned millions of dollars worth of cards to Heritage and purchased millions in cards and other memorabilia from Heritage. I have found Chris and Derek to be extremely professional and have recommended them to many. As I now understand that the individual lots remained open after the set was sold to me those bids are legally a nullity. The set was sold to me clear and simple and fair and square. This is now fair to the consignor because the lot closed. I believe that Heritage is the best auction house in the world and will do the right thing.

Thanks,

Powell

[molenick]

My suggestion (which calvindog summarized more clearly than me) was meant to try to avoid this happening in the future. I am very interested to see what happens now. It is a terrible situation for all parties involved.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Powell

I have consigned millions of dollars worth of cards to Heritage and purchased millions in cards and other memorabilia from Heritage. I have found Chris and Derek to be extremely professional and have recommended them to many. As I now understand that the individual lots remained open after the set was sold to me those bids are legally a nullity. The set was sold to me clear and simple and fair and square. This is now fair to the consignor because the lot closed. I believe that Heritage is the best auction house in the world and will do the right thing.

Thanks,

Powell

I agree. As I was watching your lead slip away last night I thought that they should have closed the individual lots at the same time as the full set lot was closed. In my mind you won the set (and I’m begging the usual Net 54 lawyers who will surely flood this thread with 5000 posts about the various legal angles to do so on another thread). My experience with Heritage is that they very well may do the right thing here. However, by doing so they will cost their consigner money by canceling numerous single lot bids. They should make that difference up to the consigner and declare Powell the set winner. That’s really the only fair way to resolve this.

Edited to add: the single lot winners should also be compensated somehow as they would be harmed as well by this resolution.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Powell

I have consigned millions of dollars worth of cards to Heritage and purchased millions in cards and other memorabilia from Heritage. I have found Chris and Derek to be extremely professional and have recommended them to many. As I now understand that the individual lots remained open after the set was sold to me those bids are legally a nullity. The set was sold to me clear and simple and fair and square. This is now fair to the consignor because the lot closed. I believe that Heritage is the best auction house in the world and will do the right thing.

Thanks,

Powell

Powell, I feel terrible for you. After this, I hope you never have to deal wi Heritage again.

[calvindog]

They needed to keep all the lots open — the individual lots and the full set lot — until there were no bids on ANY of the lots for 30 mins. Such a moronic handling of such an expensive set of cards.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They needed to keep all the lots open — the individual lots and the full set lot — until there were no bids on ANY of the lots for 30 mins. Such a moronic handling of such an expensive set of cards.

+1. Was it clear in the rules that if and when the total set lot closed the individual lots did as well? If not, seems to me that most of the unfairness that Powell experienced could be claimed by the individual lot bidders too-- I think it was noted that the reverse situation could have occurred.

Frankly, the way it played out I'm not sure I understand what Powell could have done even if his clock stayed open on the entire set. Do we know for certain that once the aggregate bids for the individual cards exceeded his set price he would have been free to increase his bid even if his lot had remained open? Did the software have an internal "scoreboard" that would have allowed Powell to basically bid against himself on that one lot? After all, no one had outbid him on that specific lot, so do we know that he could have increased his bid at any time? Just askin.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by molenick

That is horrible. I was trying to figure out a way to make this work for both the set and the individual cards where there is lot-by-lot closing.

The only way I can think of is that the timer for the set and all the cards in the set has to be the same.

If a bid is placed on the set or any card, the timer resets for every card in the set and the full set.

It sounds annoying but I think that is the only way it is fair to both the set bidder (as we have seen) and the individual card bidders (because they could bid after their lot would have normally closed if they could now "beat" the set based on later bids on other cards).

Also, each lot involved needs to clearly state if the set or the individual cards are winning and what the aggregate individual total is vs. the full set bid.

I may not be explaining this well, and there may be a better way, but that's the only one I could come up with.

Yes. Much like the fine art world HA should have had a direct line to Powell and other set bidders keeping them updated as the auction progressed and allowed them to spend more money. Common sense says once the AH sets the terms it's their responsibility to manage it. There should have been a proxy representative for any interested set bidders who were communicating every minute in the last half hour and managing the difference between the set/individual delta.
Furchrisakes, the guy is willing to spend 600k plus with your AH you'd think a little personal service would be in order.
I think Powell has a case as the winner, fortunately this is Lichtmans wheelhouse. Unfortunately if he wins folks like Aaron lose through no fault of their own, nice pick up Aaron btw.
Now it's a mess, losers would be Powell, single bidders, consigners, etc.

[Powell]

I feel terrible for the individual lot “winners” but it’s actually very simple. The
set lot closed and I was declared the winner. The hammer fell. The post sale bids are a nullity. I have an authentic Joe Jackson Boston Garter, a 1914 Herzog and a 2012 Boston Garter. I am happy to work out sales to the bidders on those two and even sell my 1912 BG if those bidders are interested to mitigate this problem.
I feel strongly that I didn’t do anything wrong and once the set sold it sold. There was offer and acceptance. I was told by the web the auction closed I went to sleep. Thank you everyone for informing me as to what happened.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

.

[Powell]

Its says “not sold” now but that’s not what it said last night and this morning. My account identified the set in my win column and then changed it later Saturday morning

[molenick]

Well, they better figure it out soon because it is a two-day auction that closes tonight. Once the invoices go out and people start paying, it's going to make things much more complicated.

[Powell]

They did not call me. I went to bed with my account saying I won. No one called
me. I consigned my “Wall of Cards” T206 set to Heritage and have bought countless treasures from Heritage. In the morning my account said I won. I learned from this board that I “lost” and I checked again on my Heritage account it changed from won to lost. No one called me. Now I learn after I was locked out on the set and went to sleep with the web saying I won they let individual lots bid to beat me with no chance to compete. I’m disgusted with the shabby way I was treated and the consignor should be livid.

[Powell]

I am the rightful winner of the set. The set closed ahead of the individual lots and I was declared the winner. There was no basis to permit bids on the individual lots after the set was sold to me and I could no longer bid on the set.
We’ll see if Heritage makes this right.

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Thanks Ryan, Jay, & Mike…

I haven’t seen a set vs. individual lots auction since the Mastro days. He did it in his auctions BUT there was no lot by lot basis for closing (no timer), those auctions went into the next morning. It is a terrible idea for a set vs. individuals to go with any kind of lot by lot closing. There’s no way for the set bidder to up his bid later (Powell’s case). It’s just a terrible format.

Today I was confirmed as the “winner” of the Baker, see below.