PSA Card Guarantee

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Is there a good explanation of those rules that a non lawyer can easily understand?

To me, I'm thinking you'd have provenance on an earlier image. And for some, fairly clear identifiers.
Like
This card with PSA serial number X was shown in this image when it was offered on x date by this particular seller.
Theres a unique wood fiber inclusion visible just here further identifying the card.
That image is X dpi, making that fiber x distance from the nearest edge


This image is a new image created on x date, and at the same dpi as the original. Note the unique fiber inclusion is now Y distance from the nearest edge.

This is the actual card, as shown.

That could be done for all edges and overall size.

Would it not be allowed?

I assume you would have an expert witness try to do all this. Who would that be? If so, here are the applicable standards at least in a federal court:

Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if:

(a) the expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue;

(b) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data;

(c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and

(d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.

One issue I see right away is (c), because comparison with prior photos is not how anyone in the industry authenticates cards. So you would have an initial substantial hurdle of trying to persuade a judge that this new method was reliable.

[steve B]

I think I can see how it works.

I was thinking probably too narrow, identifying that two pictured objects are in fact the same object, and that it got smaller between two different dates.

But it would have to include info about how the edge quality changed, and other things. And since they're all related as "proof" if one was disallowed, the rest are far less useful. Like if you can show the edge quality doesn't match original examples, but can't show that the card got smaller between dates, the edge info won't matter. Or the other way around.

So you'd probably need multiple experts? In my limited experience, people have a hard time grasping someone being a generalist, however knowledgeable.

It seems odd to me that if someone like PSA used a flawed method of determining trimming, then that becomes the standard method.... I guess one of those "things get strange sometimes" things.

[Yoda]

I have often wondered if by some unlikely scenario THE t206 PSA 001 Honus ever ended up in an authentic holder, where it belongs, what would it fetch at auction?

I guess there would be some kind of drop but the publicity, history and prior ownership would keep its' valuation in the stratosphere.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I have often wondered if by some unlikely scenario THE t206 PSA 001 Honus ever ended up in an authentic holder, where it belongs, what would it fetch at auction?

I guess there would be some kind of drop but the publicity, history and prior ownership would keep its' valuation in the stratosphere.

That might be the prevailing consensus, but I doubt it.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I assume you would have an expert witness try to do all this. Who would that be? If so, here are the applicable standards at least in a federal court:

Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses

A witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if:

(a) the expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue;

(b) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data;

(c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and

(d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.

One issue I see right away is (c), because comparison with prior photos is not how anyone in the industry authenticates cards. So you would have an initial substantial hurdle of trying to persuade a judge that this new method was reliable.

I think you'd have a much more difficult time convincing a jury that even the act of trimming->regrading->reselling a card is a crime.

I've had multiple people tell me that even cleaning cards is "wrong" and/or criminal behavior. I honestly just laugh and roll my eyes whenever I hear that. They come across to me as completely delusional. And I'm certainly in the majority viewpoint in this hobby today. But as soon as you step outside this hobby, the distribution of opinions immediately sways *much* more heavily in the direction of "who cares?" than it does "that's fraud!". I strongly suspect that any jury you'd ever encounter would view card doctoring of all stripes the exact same way. Even with the most egregious of acts like trimming.

Inside this hobby, we hear things like "fraudster!", "card molester!", "scum of the hobby!", etc. But outside the hobby, all you hear is, "clever!", "haha, sounds like he found a loophole!", and "smart!". Nobody else thinks this is fraud. Just us. And a (likely small) subset of us at that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think you'd have a much more difficult time convincing a jury that even the act of trimming->regrading->reselling a card is a crime.

I've had multiple people tell me that even cleaning cards is "wrong" and/or criminal behavior. I honestly just laugh and roll my eyes whenever I hear that. They come across to me as completely delusional. And I'm certainly in the majority viewpoint in this hobby today. But as soon as you step outside this hobby, the distribution of opinions immediately sways *much* more heavily in the direction of "who cares?" than it does "that's fraud!". I strongly suspect that any jury you'd ever encounter would view card doctoring of all stripes the exact same way. Even with the most egregious of acts like trimming.

Inside this hobby, we hear things like "fraudster!", "card molester!", "scum of the hobby!", etc. But outside the hobby, all you hear is, "clever!", "haha, sounds like he found a loophole!", and "smart!". Nobody else thinks this is fraud. Just us. And a (likely small) subset of us at that.

We're talking here though about a civil case against PSA on its guarantee, not a criminal trial for card doctoring.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We're talking here though about a civil case against PSA on its guarantee, not a criminal trial for card doctoring.

Oh, got it.

I wonder how much this phrasing might matter in that case?

"PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."

The "bears evidence of" qualifier seems pretty important to me when I read this statement. You could send in one of those BODA-outed cards that were clearly trimmed if comparing before vs after photos, but unless the card itself actually "bears evidence of" trimming, then it really doesn't matter. The graders aren't magicians. If there is nothing there to detect, then there's nothing to detect, as Peter from SGC says.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Oh, got it.

I wonder how much this phrasing might matter in that case?

"PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."

The "bears evidence of" qualifier seems pretty important to me when I read this statement. You could send in one of those BODA-outed cards that were clearly trimmed if comparing before vs after photos, but unless the card itself actually "bears evidence of" trimming, then it really doesn't matter. The graders aren't magicians. If there is nothing there to detect, then there's nothing to detect, as Peter from SGC says.

+1
If it doesn't "bear" evid of trim but is trimmed? It seems PSA/SGC covered themselves, technically.

.

[benjulmag]

IF you can get into evidence a prior image of a card established to be the SAME card, and you can show that card is smaller than its current version, I would call that bearing evidence of trimming. I don't have expertise in the method Blowout uses, but if one can establish it is analogous to a card "fingerprint" and persuade a court to admit it into evidence, and again I'm not saying you can, I think that would be pretty compelling evidence of trimming. The cost to do this, though could be astronomical, in terms of the witnesses one would need to call to establish the reliability of the method.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Oh, got it.

I wonder how much this phrasing might matter in that case?

"PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity."

The "bears evidence of" qualifier seems pretty important to me when I read this statement. You could send in one of those BODA-outed cards that were clearly trimmed if comparing before vs after photos, but unless the card itself actually "bears evidence of" trimming, then it really doesn't matter. The graders aren't magicians. If there is nothing there to detect, then there's nothing to detect, as Peter from SGC says.

So hypothetically you can prove a card is trimmed, but it bears no evidence of trimming? I don't think that would work for PSA. It's too cute and hypertechnical.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So hypothetically you can prove a card is trimmed, but it bears no evidence of trimming? I don't think that would work for PSA. It's too cute and hypertechnical.

I don't really see it as a loophole or technicality though. It reads very straightforward to me. Saying that a card bears evidence of something is a statement about the card itself, not about scanned images of a card. In this case, to say that a card bears evidence of trimming means that upon close examination, the card's edges look like they've been trimmed and/or the card does not meet the required sizing specs.

PSA grades cards, not pictures of cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't really see it as a loophole or technicality though. It reads very straightforward to me. Saying that a card bears evidence of something is a statement about the card itself, not about scanned images of a card. In this case, to say that a card bears evidence of trimming means that upon close examination, the card's edges look like they've been trimmed and/or the card does not meet the required sizing specs.

PSA grades cards, not pictures of cards.

You argue to the jury that yes we admit the card is trimmed, but we don't have to honor our guarantee. I'll take the opposite all day long.

[swarmee]

Of course there are ways to detect whether cards are trimmed visually, but if it's actually a court case, I wonder if the owner would allow invasive/destructive scientific testing of the card. If three edges show 100 years of exposure to air contaminants, and one only shows 10 years of exposure, that would be scientific evidence that PSA is incompetent. So on a card like a $500 EX-MT card that became a $100,000 PSA 10, it would be worth it for the owner (who already has some kind of visual evidence that the card is trimmed from before/after photos) to allow for destructive testing.