Players not yet eligible for the HOF

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

At no point in his career was Keith Hernandez better than Don Mattingly. If Mattingly is not in the HOF there is no argument for Hernandez.

This is a silly argument, considering that Keith Hernandez started playing a decade before Mattingly. Are you discounting Hernandez' MVP that he won in 1979, 3 years before Mattingly played for the Yankees?

Yes, Mattingly was more productive than Hernandez during his prime from 1984 through 1989. This was the end of Hernandez' career, as Hernandez retired in 1990 and is 7 years older than Mattingly. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Mattingly only had 4 great years (over 5 WAR).
Hernandez had 5 great years (over 5 WAR).
And Mattingly only had 2 other years with over 3 WAR.
Hernandez had 6 other years with over 3 WAR.

Many people consider Hernandez to be the best fielding first baseman ever. No one (except maybe you?) consider Mattingly to be a better fielder.

[PhillyVintage]

I think Utley is underrated. The fact that he never won a gold glove hides the fact that he was one of the best defenders of his time. He led the entire MLB with a 3.5 dWAR in 2008 and his 64.5 WAR/49.3 7-Year Peak WAR/17.3 dWAR is pretty impressive at 2B. He suffers in counting stats because he didn’t even play 2000 games and again, he suffers a bit in the awards because of the GG thing and the fact that the voters picked the wrong Phillie in 2007 for the MVP.

[Svabinsky78]

Originally Posted by PhillyVintage

I think Utley is underrated. The fact that he never won a gold glove hides the fact that he was one of the best defenders of his time. He led the entire MLB with a 3.5 dWAR in 2008 and his 64.5 WAR/49.3 7-Year Peak WAR/17.3 dWAR is pretty impressive at 2B. He suffers in counting stats because he didn’t even play 2000 games and again, he suffers a bit in the awards because of the GG thing and the fact that the voters picked the wrong Phillie in 2007 for the MVP.

Here is a pretty good analysis for Utley:

https://www.cooperstowncred.com/chas...le%20in%202024.

[nineunder71]

This guy is getting in for sure

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

This is a silly argument, considering that Keith Hernandez started playing a decade before Mattingly. Are you discounting Hernandez' MVP that he won in 1979, 3 years before Mattingly played for the Yankees?

Yes, Mattingly was more productive than Hernandez during his prime from 1984 through 1989. This was the end of Hernandez' career, as Hernandez retired in 1990 and is 7 years older than Mattingly. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

Mattingly only had 4 great years (over 5 WAR).
Hernandez had 5 great years (over 5 WAR).
And Mattingly only had 2 other years with over 3 WAR.
Hernandez had 6 other years with over 3 WAR.

Many people consider Hernandez to be the best fielding first baseman ever. No one (except maybe you?) consider Mattingly to be a better fielder.

Hernandez had the benefit of health and he did almost nothing with it. His counting stats are either less than Mattingly's or the difference is negligible. But Mattingly was only healthy for 4 seasons. And for those four seasons he was arguably the best player in the entire league, and a proto-Albert Pujols. Hernandez was never that good.

The difference in defense is negligible as well. Everyone knows Mattingly was an all world glove in his own right. He has two less Gold Gloves in 3 less seasons. Not turning anyone's head.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

Hernandez had the benefit of health and he did almost nothing with it. His counting stats are either less than Mattingly's or the difference is negligible. But Mattingly was only healthy for 4 seasons. And for those four seasons he was arguably the best player in the entire league, and a proto-Albert Pujols. Hernandez was never that good.

The difference in defense is negligible as well. Everyone knows Mattingly was an all world glove in his own right. He has two less Gold Gloves in 3 less seasons. Not turning anyone's head.

I like how Tabe is arguing that Hernandez wasn't healthy enough, and you are arguing that he was too healthy (and somehow squandered his health).

As you said Mattingly was only healthy for 4 seasons. Is that enough for the HOF? Maybe. But I don't see a way Hernandez doesn't get in first.

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

I like how Tabe is arguing that Hernandez wasn't healthy enough, and you are arguing that he was too healthy (and somehow squandered his health).

As you said Mattingly was only healthy for 4 seasons. Is that enough for the HOF? Maybe. But I don't see a way Hernandez doesn't get in first.

What does too healthy mean? When was Keith injured and what were his injuries? Mattingly suffers from the same injury as David Wright and my point about his four seasons was that despite being healthy for only a fraction of Hernandez's entire career, he put up as good or better numbers.

That doesn't make Hernandez sound good but it seems like you think it does.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mattingly was arguably the best player in baseball, or right at the top, for a period of years. Hernandez, not close. That has to count for something in the comparison.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mattingly was arguably the best player in baseball, or right at the top, for a period of years. Hernandez, not close. That has to count for something in the comparison.

With all due respect, this too is a silly argument. Dale Murphy was arguably the best player in baseball in the early 80s. Does that mean he should get into the HOF before Billy Williams, or any other player who had a better overall career?

As far as peak goes, you need a very narrow window of time to claim that Mattingly had a better peak. Specifically, you need 4 years. WAR7, which is used in JAWS is more common. Hernandez is 21st for First Baseman with a WAR7 of 41.2 compared to Mattingly who ranks 34th with a 35.7 WAR7. Oh, and Hernandez ranks ahead of Olerud (24th) and Will Clark (31) too.

And let's not forget Hernandez finishing in the top 5 in the MVP voting 3 times, just as Mattingly did.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

With all due respect, this too is a silly argument. Dale Murphy was arguably the best player in baseball in the early 80s. Does that mean he should get into the HOF before Billy Williams, or any other player who had a better overall career?

As far as peak goes, you need a very narrow window of time to claim that Mattingly had a better peak. Specifically, you need 4 years. WAR7, which is used in JAWS is more common. Hernandez is 21st for First Baseman with a WAR7 of 41.2 compared to Mattingly who ranks 34th with a 35.7 WAR7. Oh, and Hernandez ranks ahead of Olerud (24th) and Will Clark (31) too.

What was Koufax's WAR 7?

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

With all due respect, this too is a silly argument. Dale Murphy was arguably the best player in baseball in the early 80s. Does that mean he should get into the HOF before Billy Williams, or any other player who had a better overall career?

As far as peak goes, you need a very narrow window of time to claim that Mattingly had a better peak. Specifically, you need 4 years. WAR7, which is used in JAWS is more common. Hernandez is 21st for First Baseman with a WAR7 of 41.2 compared to Mattingly who ranks 34th with a 35.7 WAR7. Oh, and Hernandez ranks ahead of Olerud (24th) and Will Clark (31) too.

You can just look and see who was better. Mattingly was hitting close to or more than 30 homers and 100 runs driven in while hitting 343, 324, 352 and 327.

When you talk about talent and ability and who was better, it is so obviously Mattingly.

Keith Hernandez could not do those things. What COULD he do that Mattingly couldn't? Stay healthy is just about all you can point to. I don't want to hear about defense. You're talking about a guy who won 9 Gold Gloves of his own.