10 best postwar players who haven't made the Hall

[seanofjapan]

Dave Parker, Vida Blue and Kenny Lofton?

Pretty strong case for Harold Baines and Jack Morris to be on that list too, but I digress...

[G1911]

I don't think there are 10 that I would put in, generally the Hall has done well in this era. I am excising Helton, because he has 5 more writers ballots he is eligible on and he got 72% last time, the odds are 99% he is elected before he hits a veterans committee ballot, so it doesn't feel like he is being forgotten or underrated. Billy Wagner is at 68% and has 2 more ballots, he is also 90%+ likely to be elected and so excised here.

In order:


1. Curt Schilling - he is in a new class here. The writers have generally done a good job historically, with the egregious choices coming from corrupt veterans committee's. They elected Ted Williams, who they hated, year 1 with 93.4% of the vote when almost nobody hit 90%. But Schilling is out and Ortiz is in on pure corruption and politics from the press. If Schilling was a nice dude, he would be in. If he was an obnoxious prick but made a joke about hanging the deplorables the media hates instead, he would be in. A good argument can be made that the HOF should not include pitchers of Schilling's caliber, but that is not the line the HOF has actually drawn with its choices. 80 WAR is well above the mark, to pick just one stat. There's no honest argument that Schilling does not meet the general statistical standards.

2. Jeff Kent - One of the top 6 or 7 2B offensively. Suffers from a weird career trajectory and being overshadowed by Bonds during his peak. Also kind of a prick. I have a hard time seeing how he is not a HOF 2B. I would rate him over a lot of the 2B elected, not just the absolute worst.

3. Rich Allen - Longevity is his problem, no one thinks his peak is not worthy. His rate states are truly great, but his counting is weak and he was a team problem.

4. Tommy John - pretty hard to excise him when Kaat, Sutton, Hunter, etc. are in. Pretty much all the pitchers just like him are in.

5. Vida Blue & Luis Tiant - WAR likes Tiant a lot more but they are almost the same stat line.

6. Omar Vizquel - Whether or not he is guilty of the charges won't matter, he was trending to make it shortly before they appeared. Baseball and the media no longer care about actual guilt and so it's irrelevant, he will never get in either way. I probably wouldn't vote for him, but I don't think defense only is generally worthy of the hall. The presence of Maranville and Smith in the HOF suggests the general HOF standard incorporates Vizquel. If it was purely my opinion, I would probably not include him in the top 10 but he rates higher when compared to the actual hall standard than he does where I would put him.

7. Will Clark - Look at the stats and it sounds less absurd. Borderline.

8. Ken Boyer - Right on the borderline, probably the best 3B not in but also not unfairly ignored.

9. Lou Whitaker - He's almost certain to go in on an eras committee ballot. WAR likes him a lot more than I think his actual production is worth.

10. Kenny Lofton - Lot of counting stats, fast, good glove, WAR likes him. 107 OPS+ is where I dock him and others don't; his bat was just a little over league average and that's hard to justify for a HOFer. Rickey was at 127, Raines at 123. That he fell off the ballot immediately is a travesty, but I'm not sure he should actually be elected. Man deserved an honest appraisal, as did Carlos Delgado.

[cgjackson222]

I agree with many of the players already mentioned, and would add Graig Nettles, Bobby Grich (really close to Lou Whitaker at 2B), Rick Reuschel (had great counting stats and some very dominant years such as 1977), David Cone, Jim Edmonds, and Reggie Smith.

My top at each position:

P: Tiant/Schilling
C: Munson
1B: Helton/Hernandez/Allen
2B: Whitaker/Kent/Grich
SS: Campaneris/Vizquel
3B: Boyer/Nettles
OF: Lofton/Edmonds/Evans
RP: Billy Wagner

[frankhardy]

Jim Edmonds should be in. I think it is a shame he is not. Very good power, and he is one of the top 5 best defensive centerfielders to ever live I think.

[packs]

Johan Santana. Yes, short career but so what? He won 2 Cy Youngs, a pitching Triple Crown, and 3 ERA titles. Short career aside that's a HOFer's resume.

[jsfriedm]

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Rod Carew as well, no?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Cano and Grich may be ahead of Kent as well.

OPS+ for 2nd Basemen:
1) Rogers Hornsby 175
2) Lajoie 150
3) Eddie Collins 142
4) Jackie Robinson 133
5) Joe Morgan 132
6) Gehringer/Bobby Grich 125
8) Robinson Cano 124
9) Jeff Kent 123
10 Joe Gordon 120
11) Lou Whitaker and Chace Utley 117
13) Roberto Alomar 116
14) Ryne Sandberg 114
15) Dustin Pedroia 113
16) Biggio 112

I think Carew played more games at 1B than 2B so it is hard to count him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jsfriedm

I actually don't think Kent is one of 6 or 7 best offensive second basemen. Here's 7 - who are you putting him ahead of?

Rogers Hornsby
Eddie Collins
Nap Lajoie
Charlie Gehringer
Jackie Robinson
Joe Morgan
Roberto Alomar (offensive WAR 70.8 to 60.1 for Kent)

Hornsby
Collins
Lajoie
Gehringer
Morgan

Jackie is close and would probably pass if he’d had a couple more years. I note we don’t want to use oWar for him.

Rod Carew played more games at 1B than 2B. If we count him as a 2B and credit his half plus career at first as playing 2B, I would put him ahead to, but that criteria doesn’t make much sense.

Cano, Alomar, Biggio are close. Less impressive peaks and more counting seasons. I definitely deduct a bit from Cano for clearly cheating to reach his stats.