1921-23 E220 National Caramel Dating Re-evaluation

[brianp-beme]

Nice background info on the (previously not identified?) National and American Caramel connection. To me everything still points, as Rhett originally suggested, to a 1922 issue date.

I will follow this post with an updated verified back list, with scans illustrating the three backs as a reminder, and will include a new category listing the handful of cards that still only have one back verified, which includes a couple of big name stars.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

As promised, here is the updated confirmed back variation list. But first, as a reminder, are the three various backs, shown left to right as Type 1 ('B' of 'BALL' in 2nd line of text underneath 'p' of 'pictures' in the first line), Type 2 (same 'B' under 'i' of 'pictures) and Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) (text reads bottom to top on back, and like regular Type 2, the 'B' is under the 'i'):

E220hollachertrio 001 (800x450).jpg

e220hollachertriobacks 002 (800x450).jpg


And here are the updated lists, with new additions in bold (all Type 3), and a new category ("Cards only seen in Type 1"), which surprisingly has a couple of bigger name players that one would figure that all existing backs would have already been identified. Edit to identify that Pat found 4 of the 6 on the list, including the Cobb and Speaker. Because of this I am thinking it likely that the other two will be verified...?


Type 1 - backs have been verified for all 120 cards.


'Regular' Type 2 - verified backs (47* currently):

G.C. Alexander
Turner Barber
George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wilbur Cooper
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jimmy Dykes (batting)
"Red" Faber
Chick Fewster
Wilson Fewster
Walter Gerber
Hank Gowdy
Charles Grimm
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston
Dick Kerr
Pete Kilduff (bending)
Pete Kilduff (leaping)
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Walter "Rabbit" Maranville
Bob Meusel
Bob O'Farrell*
Ivan Olson
Steve O'Neill
Geo. Paskert
Roger Peckinpaugh
V.J. Picinich
Wally Pipp
Jimmy Ring
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Bob Shawkey
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
James Vaughan
Robert Veach
George Whitted (batting)
Arthur Wilson


Type 3 (aka Reversed Type 2) - verified backs (100* currently):

Babe Adams
James Austin
Franklin "Home Run" Baker
Dave Bancroft
George Burns (Cincinnati)
George Burns (Cleveland)
Joe Bush
Leon Cadore
Max Carey
Ty Cobb
Eddie Collins
John Collins
S. Covaleskie
Walton Cruise
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Jake Daubert
Chas. A Deal
Bill Doak
Joe Dugan
Jimmy Dykes (fielding)
Chick Fewster
Ira Flagstead
Arthur Fletcher
Frank Frisch
Larry Gardner
Walter Gerber
Charles Glazner
J.C. Graney
Tommy Griffith
Charles Grimm*
Heinie Groh
Byron Harris
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Claude Hendrix
Walt Henline
Chas. Hollocher
Harry Hooper
Rogers Hornsby
Waite Hoyt
Wilbert Hubbell
William Jacobsen
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston*
Joe Judge
Geo. "Bingo" Kelly
Pete Kilduff (bending down)*
Larry Kopf
Harry Leibold
H.B. Leonard
Walter "Buster" Mails
Carl Mays
Lee Meadows
Bob Meusel*
Emil Meusel
J.C. Milan
Earl Neale
Robert Nehf
Bernie Neis
Joe Oeschger
Robert O'Farrell
Ivan Olson
Geo. Paskert
Herb Pennock
Ralph "Cy" Perkins
Scott Perry
Jeff Pfeffer
Wally Pipp
Derill Pratt
Goldie Rapp
Edgar Rice
Eddie Rousch
Babe Ruth
Wally Schang
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Joe Sewell
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
George Sisler
Earl Smith
John Smith
Sherrod Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)
Tris Speaker
Vernon Spencer
Chas. "Casey" Stengle
Milton Stock (batting)
Milton Stock (fielding)
Wm. Wambsgauss
Aaron Ward
Zach Wheat
George Whitted (fielding)
Fred C. Williams
Ivy Wingo*
Lawton Witt
"Pep" Young
Ross Young


Cards that have been seen with all three back types, which are any that are noted in both lists above (28* total):

George Burns (Cincinnati)
Joe Bush
Wm. Cunningham
George Cutshaw
Chick Fewster
Walter Gerber
Charles Grimm*
Sam Harris
Harry Heilman
Chas. Hollocher
Wilbert Hubbell
Walter Johnson
Jimmy Johnston*
Pete Kilduff (bending down)*
Larry Kopf
Walter "Buster" Mails
Bob Meusel*
Bob O'Farrell*
Ivan Olson
Geo. Paskert
Wally Pipp
Raymond Schmandt
Everett Scott
Maurice Shannon
Urban Shocker
John Smith
Frank Snyder (crouching)
Frank Snyder (standing)


Cards that currently have only a Type 1 back verified:

Jim Bagby
Ivy Wingo *

The below were verified by Pat with having a Type 3 back in the post following this one:

Ty Cobb
Herb Pennock
Wally Schang
Tris Speaker



Still looking for additional back verifications, your help as always will be appreciated.


Brian

[Pat R]

Brian, I don't know the set so I'm not sure if all of these are authentic but if they are comparing the fronts to the back scans I believe they are all type 3's.

E220 Cobb 3.jpg

E220 Pennock 3 or 2.jpg

E220 Schang 3.jpg

E220 Speaker 3.jpg

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Brian, I don't know the set so I'm not sure if all of these are authentic but if they are comparing the fronts to the back scans I believe they are all type 3's.

Hi Pat, fantastic, thanks! I have never really dived into scouring the internet for E220 back variations, as I have just haphazardly/sporadically done so over the years. All those cards look good and are the Type 3 (or Type 2 Reversed...I may have been inconsistently haphazard/sporadic about the back type designation over the years as well).

I will update the list on the previous post. Now just to find the Wingo and Bagby with a Type 2 or Type 3 back (keep in mind that all E220 Bagby cards have Bagby's last name incorrectly spelled as Bagbyk, which, by the way, is my all-time favorite misspelled name on a card).

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Updated post #60 with additions/changes to the lists, current to 5/31/24. New additions are noted with both bold type AND an '*'.

Brian

[paul]

Has anyone else noticed that the E220 Frisch lists him as a third baseman, just like the 1921 E121-80, but unlike the 1922 E121-120? This could be evidence of a 1921 issue date. But it's pretty weak evidence compared to the information Rhett presented 14 years ago, so I'm still sticking to Rhett's 1922 date.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by paul

Has anyone else noticed that the E220 Frisch lists him as a third baseman, just like the 1921 E121-80, but unlike the 1922 E121-120? This could be evidence of a 1921 issue date. But it's pretty weak evidence compared to the information Rhett presented 14 years ago, so I'm still sticking to Rhett's 1922 date.

Definitely Frisch was almost strictly a 3rd baseman in 1920, and in 1921 and 1922 he played in a significant amount of games at both 2nd base and 3rd base. So definitely I could see that his 1920 season would have pegged him to be listed as a 3rd baseman if produced in 1921. But then again he also played over 60% of his playing time in 1921 at 3rd base, so he was still probably seen as primarily as a 3rd baseman going into the 1922 season.

I also still agree with Rhett's 1922 assessment as well.


1920 3B 109 games

1920 SS 2 games


1921 3B 93 games

1921 2B 61 games


1922 2B 85 games

1922 3B 53 games

1922 SS 1 game


Brian