Identifying E101 and E102 purely by the front (E8, E78 tie in)

[gabrinus]

Had a card with a Menagerie back that was designated as E92...memory fails me who it was but if I remember it I will post...Jerry

[gabrinus]

It was a Red Kleinow I bought from FKW...Jerry

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

It was a Red Kleinow I bought from FKW...Jerry

Jerry, here it is. Still appreciate you letting me get it. And my Lobert labeled as an e102.

Rob, no idea if you have the Magee. From memory I think it last sold in LOTG years ago.

[G1911]

Not my card! - Here's a Wagner Menagerie (E26).

The Wagner and Lobert indicate the 3rd back type - Menagerie Gum at top, but no Dockman credit at bottom. i.e., another anonymous issue.

I believe there is a John McGraw like this too. I also assume that SGC just made up the E92 designation, because they don't know the E26 backs and assumed the Dockman ad version of that set who also made an E92 series, though these cards are not using that Dockman advertising version.

[G1911]

And to add - the three Menagerie backs can be seen here in Dan's gallery on the non-sport side: http://www.moviecard.com/gallery/ecards/e26_back.html

[RCMcKenzie]

Dj, I thought I posted it as a pick-up on here and we had a similar discussion to this thread. I'll check to see if I have the Magee.

[G1911]

Another possibly related card (again, not mine!); this is an E8 Battleship with the same E78 misaligned and upside down back as the Magee and the Young.

E8 is another anonymous issue. I am also attaching what an E8 back looks like, similar stepped checklist pattern that was used on a lot of the anonymous issues and by American Caramel as well in many of their sets.

I'm digging through my archive for that McGraw I could swear exists...

[G1911]

No McGraw in my photo archive, but found a Danny Murphy (Not my card either!). Again, this one clearly shows it is not a Dockman E26, but the second anonymous type back.

[x2drich2000]

Here are the menagerie and prize fighters I'm aware of.

Menagerie
- Bemis
- Kleinow - raw (poor)
- Lobert - SGC A
- McGraw - SGC 30
- Murphy - SGC 30
- Shean - BVG 1
- Wagner (batting) - SGC 40

Prizefighters
- Magee - SGC 40
- Young - SGC 30
- E8 U.S.S. Connecticut
- E8 U.S.S. Pennsylvania (Added 5/14/23)

Rob, maybe you did. I just don't remember.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Had a card with a Menagerie back that was designated as E92...memory fails me who it was but if I remember it I will post...Jerry

Here is the Wagner batting -- OOPS, I see it was already posted. Sorry for the double post

I love this issue -- E90-1 (sometimes) through E106 and T216. DJ knows more about these than anyone. I wish we had the general knowledge on these cards that exist for T206

[G1911]

It seems to me that the likeliest scenario is that all of the sets discussed here were done by a single printer. It doesn't make much sense otherwise; one printing firm gets the artwork done, designs the cards and captions, and then others... what, pirate the set by getting their hands on the cards, recreating the images perfectly and setting up to reprint them? It doesn't make sense that way, hard to see the profit in going to so much effort at the time. E90, E92, E101, E102, these sets are all very likely the same printer. The wrong sheets tell us E78, E26 and E8 had to be done by the same team.

We do know the name of a printer used by American Caramel, who issued E90. The E125 die cut stands from mid 1910 tell us P.R. Warren made both series of them. I have been diving into Peter R. Warren's printing and paper goods making firm of Lowell, Warrensville, Boston and NYC because of this connection in an effort to tie their NY office to American Caramel to resolve some lingering mysteries from the V153 research.

We should not assume and make the deductive leap that because Peter Warren's firm did the E125's that they did all of American Caramel's cards (and thus likely this grouping of sets discussed in this thread). It forms the solitary real clue I have at present though, and may lead to a real resolution. P.R. Warren was in some serious financial trouble in late 1910, but were big enough to have at least 4 offices and locations. I have always thought it probable the caramel sets were not authorized unlike the tobacco issues, but if Warren had an NY office and did do American Caramel's cards, these issues may have been authorized by the players after all, in accord with the 1904 NY State law.

[gabrinus]

Awesome DJ...thanks...I don't know why I thought it was graded...should have remembered I sold it to you...Jerry

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Awesome DJ...thanks...I don't know why I thought it was graded...should have remembered I sold it to you...Jerry

Why do I get the impression that a significant amount of significant cards have passed through your hands Jerry...

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Why do I get the impression that a significant amount of significant cards have passed through your hands Jerry...

Jerry is the man behind the man behind the man when it comes to baseball cards like Macrae and Richard. I used to think they were old, but they're only like 15 years older than me or 30 years older like Deniro and Pacino.

[gabrinus]

Thanks guys...I think y'all are definitely holding more cards than me now...don't think my collection was ever like Richard or Macrae's...Jerry