Need Some Guidance

[BobC]

Originally Posted by EddiesDryGoods

Good Morning,

I recently sold an Ed Walsh T206 on Ebay. It was in an SGC holder and graded Authentic.

Upon selling, I was forced to send the card to the Ebay authenticator which was annoying as the buyer was fine in receiving the card directly and it creates a hold on my receiving the $300 payment.

Two days ago, I heard from the authenticator that the card was rejected b/c it did not match the description on the auction. Both the buyer and I were is disbelief as the card is in graded SGC holder. I was notified the buyer would be getting a refund and the card would be sent back to me. While this is quite annoying, I could live with it and the buyer seemed interested in buying the card directly from me once I got it back.

So, out of curiosity, I called Ebay yesterday asking what exactly didn't match the description. After waiting many minutes for an answer, they got back on the line and stated that the authenticator said the package did not contain anything. When I expressed my astonishment, the rep said they will "try to get more details" and they should be in touch in a few days. He suggested I speak with the postal service but the tracking indicates it was delivered. He was very casual about the whole thing and I indicated my total disappointment with the authentication service and questioned if someone there might have stolen the card.

I did not take out USPS insurance but don't think that matters anyway since the package was delivered. I am now out $300 and am wondering what recourse I have?? It does not seem at all fair that I am liable for something that was stolen or has gone missing while at the authenticator. Thoughts appreciated!

Criminals exist everywhere in the world, at pretty much every level. Could it also be possible that someone in the postal system, knowing the address such packages go to contain valuable collectibles, have taken the item and then let the now empty package continue on?

I am sorry to hear of this happening to you. Be thankful the card wasn't worth much more than what you've lost.

And though we can often learn good lessons from occurrences like this, and correct future actions to try and not let it happen again, in this case there isn't much you can do, maybe sans never selling on Ebay again. The Ebay authentication program was primarily put in place to combat and protect against fraudulent sellers, and buyers. Unfortunately, it doesn't really do a damn thing against other criminals that may be involved in the process somehow.

[robw1959]

I seem to recall another member posting about a similar situation during which he was also victimized. The member, as I recall, was able to file a USPS claim in which he indicated that he had been defrauded by a postal worker, initiating an investigation. And I think the matter was settled with his card finding its way to his residence rather quickly.

Maybe somebody can provide a link for you to initiate such a claim.

[oldjudge]

Why would an authenticator steal a $300 card? There are plenty of more attractive pieces to go after. A situation like this raises the question of how someone can prove that they put a card in a package. Even if you were anal enough to film the process of packing the card, how can you prove that after the filming you didn’t open the box, take the card out, and send an empty box. It gets down to dealing with people you trust and since you don’t know the authenticator that is tough to do in this case.At least we are just talking about a few hundred dollars and not thousands.

[x2drich2000]

Since it was a graded card, doesn't that go to PSA for authentication? If so, didn't PSA lose a lawsuit years ago when they couldn't prove a card wasn't in the box it was shipped to them in? You would think with how cheap cameras are now and the value of the items being authenticated that they would have every box they are opening recorded.

[jingram058]

I had a very similar and bad experience in 2004, while I was still in the Navy. I sold an 1894 Plant System railroad timetables brochure. It was worth $300 to the buyer. When the buyer received the padded mailer, he stated it showed evidence of having been tampered with, and it was empty. I had it sent via UPS with insurance. After their investigation, I was compensated, but it took I think 2 months. The investigation revealed that the timetable was stolen by a UPS employee along with several other people's shipments. The comments above are so true; bad people exist everywhere and at every level.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why would an authenticator steal a $300 card? There are plenty of more attractive pieces to go after. A situation like this raises the question of how someone can prove that they put a card in a package. Even if you were anal enough to film the process of packing the card, how can you prove that after the filming you didn’t open the box, take the card out, and send an empty box. It gets down to dealing with people you trust and since you don’t know the authenticator that is tough to do in this case.At least we are just talking about a few hundred dollars and not thousands.

Exactly why I surmised that it may have been a postal worker instead Jay. They see and know where the address and item are going, but don't know what is in the package, and how valuable it may be, till they open it. And once they've taken the chance and opened it, they're pretty much committed to stealing it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by BobC

Could it also be possible that someone in the postal system, knowing the address such packages go to contain valuable collectibles, have taken the item and then let the now empty package continue on?

I wonder about this too. I think all AH should be very careful with the return addresses they use, to avoid telegraphing the fact something valuable and collectible is inside. For instance, I recently received a package with return address: Bill Huggins, Huggins & Scott. I think that is much better than, say, "Huggins & Scott Auctions..." The word "Auctions" telegraphs a valuable item that was bid on, and not just general merchandise, like a bug zapper or package of T shirts.

[Eric72]

"Be thankful the card wasn't worth much more than what you've lost."

- BobC

1. Don't be thankful if your card/money gets stolen. That's silly.
2. You haven't lost anything. You either get your card back, someone else lost it, or it was stolen.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the first message you got is a good sign. Did it have a tracking number? If so, check the tracking. If not, don't roll over and take this. Keep contacting eBay until you get someone who can handle this properly. I tend to favor their chat feature, so there's a written record. Email would also serve this purpose, though there's more of a lag time between sending and receiving.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

"Be thankful the card wasn't worth much more than what you've lost."

- BobC

1. Don't be thankful if your card/money gets stolen. That's silly.
2. You haven't lost anything. You either get your card back, someone else lost it, or it was stolen.

As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, the first message you got is a good sign. Did it have a tracking number? If so, check the tracking. If not, don't roll over and take this. Keep contacting eBay until you get someone who can handle this properly. I tend to favor their chat feature, so there's a written record. Email would also serve this purpose, though there's more of a lag time between sending and receiving.

Eric,

I didn't say he should be thankful his card/money was stolen, I said he should be thankful it wasn't an even more valuable card, worth maybe thousands, instead of just a few hundred dollars. That is a HUGE difference.

And as for not having lost anything, if the authenticator says his package arrived empty, with no card in it, the money he was supposed to get for the sale will most definitely be taken back and given to the buyer, and there is now no card to return to the seller. So, whichever way you want to look at, the seller has most definitely lost something, either the $300 he sold the card for, or the card itself. And having the tracking number doesn't really mean anything if the seller can't also prove he actually put the card in the package he sent. Continuing to harangue Ebay about this may not be the best course either. One of the reasons Ebay set this authentication program up was to protect themselves against bad sellers trying to send empty packages to buyers, and then claiming the buyer lied about not receiving the card(s). Ebay was not directly involved in the mailing/receipt of these transactions before their authentication program, and so had no real way to determine who was actually telling the truth. Now though, since the package was sent and received by Ebay's authentication agent, supposedly they have the agent's evidence/testimony that the card was not included in the package sent by the seller, and can much more easily and readily deny the seller's claim.

Hopefully, as brought up by others, the seller's inquiry may lead to an investigation, either with the authenticator, and/or the postal service, and one of them can maybe investigate and find out that there may have been some theft involved after all. But that is not a guarantee at all that he is going to ever get his card back, or that someone will reimburse him for what he had sold it for. So, if nothing else, best case scenario is he is at least out the use of the money he was supposed to have received from selling this card, and now has to endure the worry and stress of whether or not he'll ever get the money or the card back, so he can try re-selling it again. Plus, he's also out the time and effort he has to put forth to pursue this entire issue. Worst case, he's out the money and the card. In any case, he has most definitely lost something though.

But I do agree that the original message he got saying the card was not as described should give him some hope that this is possibly just some screw-up or misplacement on the authenticator's behalf. Saying an item is not as described is way different than saying we didn't get it at all. But the additional fact that he was told on the phone by an actual person that this package was missing the card, does not bode well for his argument, and recovery of the card or the money he sold it for.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

Eric,

I didn't say he should be thankful his card/money was stolen, I said he should be thankful it wasn't an even more valuable card, worth maybe thousands, instead of just a few hundred dollars. That is a HUGE difference.

And as for not having lost anything, if the authenticator says his package arrived empty, with no card in it, the money he was supposed to get for the sale will most definitely be taken back and given to the buyer, and there is now no card to return to the seller. So, whichever way you want to look at, the seller has most definitely lost something, either the $300 he sold the card for, or the card itself. And having the tracking number doesn't really mean anything if the seller can't also prove he actually put the card in the package he sent. Continuing to harangue Ebay about this may not be the best course either. One of the reasons Ebay set this authentication program up was to protect themselves against bad sellers trying to send empty packages to buyers, and then claiming the buyer lied about not receiving the card(s). Ebay was not directly involved in the mailing/receipt of these transactions before their authentication program, and so had no real way to determine who was actually telling the truth. Now though, since the package was sent and received by Ebay's authentication agent, supposedly they have the agent's evidence/testimony that the card was not included in the package sent by the seller, and can much more easily and readily deny the seller's claim.

Hopefully, as brought up by others, the seller's inquiry may lead to an investigation, either with the authenticator, and/or the postal service, and one of them can maybe investigate and find out that there may have been some theft involved after all. But that is not a guarantee at all that he is going to ever get his card back, or that someone will reimburse him for what he had sold it for. So, if nothing else, best case scenario is he is at least out the use of the money he was supposed to have received from selling this card, and now has to endure the worry and stress of whether or not he'll ever get the money or the card back, so he can try re-selling it again. Plus, he's also out the time and effort he has to put forth to pursue this entire issue. Worst case, he's out the money and the card. In any case, he has most definitely lost something though.

But I do agree that the original message he got saying the card was not as described should give him some hope that this is possibly just some screw-up or misplacement on the authenticator's behalf. Saying an item is not as described is way different than saying we didn't get it at all. But the additional fact that he was told on the phone by an actual person that this package was missing the card, does not bode well for his argument, and recovery of the card or the money he sold it for.

Sorry, we have differing opinions. I'll leave it at that, though.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Sorry, we have differing opinions. I'll leave it at that, though.

Unbelievable!

The inability of many people on this forum to understand the written word just blows me away sometimes. There is nothing to disagree upon. And I will leave it at that.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

Unbelievable!

The inability of many people on this forum to understand the written word just blows me away sometimes. There is nothing to disagree upon. And I will leave it at that.

I understood what you wrote. We have different points of view, that's all. If someone took my card or money, I wouldn't chalk it up as a loss and console myself with the fact the loss wasn't greater.

Since you brought up reading comprehension, I'll make an observation:

You frequently give an opinion of a person or company. However, your full name is seldom, if ever, in your post or obtainable from it. You realize that rule is at the top of every page, right?