ANYONE interested in piggybacking with me to SGC? ALL GRADES POSTED!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Much of mine was that, but the cards were high grade and gorgeous. Across the board, two grades lower than expected on average, even with expectations geared to tight grading. And in virtually every case, when I carefully reviewed the cards on return, I saw no plausible reason for the grades. Utter waste of hundreds of dollars.

This is not directed at you but I bet the most frequent complaint made by submitters is that their stuff was not assessed fairly. Sadly the graders are too arrogant to consider this to ever be an accurate statement and that is flavored by the fact that few collectors pick up flaws that render a card a lower grade while it might appear nicer and even fewer can detect alterations.

The present environment for grading at both PSA and SGC is overly conservative therefore I feel your comment has a great deal of credibility. Being disappointed and feeling like you were just robbed at the ATM is a familiar feeling when grades finalize.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

This is not directed at you but I bet the most frequent complaint made by submitters is that their stuff was not assessed fairly. Sadly the graders are too arrogant to consider this to ever be an accurate statement and that is flavored by the fact that few collectors pick up flaws that render a card a lower grade while it might appear nicer and even fewer can detect alterations.

The present environment for grading at both PSA and SGC is overly conservative therefore I feel your comment has a great deal of credibility. Being disappointed and feeling like you were just robbed at the ATM is a familiar feeling when grades finalize.

Right. I've been submitting cards for about 30 years, since shortly after PSA started. I am admittedly not as good as I could be in catching alterations, but I can grade, and my expectations on this group were conservative in light of the current environment. But many if not most of these grades were ludicrous. Any vintage card has some tiny flaws compared to an ultra modern creation. But to translate some tiny flaw into a two or three grade deduction, I mean eff that. A mint vintage card is not a 6. I never would have spent the money for these holders.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right. I've been submitting cards for about 30 years, since shortly after PSA started. I am admittedly not as good as I could be in catching alterations, but I can grade, and my expectations on this group were conservative in light of the current environment. But many if not most of these grades were ludicrous. Any vintage card has some tiny flaws compared to an ultra modern creation. But to translate some tiny flaw into a two or three grade deduction, I mean eff that. A mint vintage card is not a 6. I never would have spent the money for these holders.

Yeah I am not doubting your experience or your eye on assessment. I think the point of reference for most in the grading room is seeing shiny modern cards that are flawless or nearly so. These boys do not have the ability to adjust their perspective. At least that is my theory. That a card is graded accurately is no longer important to these graders. Just get the stuff graded and get it shipped. If it is graded too low, the guy getting hammered is not going to stop doing business with them. If the card is graded too high, unlikely there would be complaints. Lots of holder buyers out there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah I am not doubting your experience or your eye on assessment. I think the point of reference for most in the grading room is seeing shiny modern cards that are flawless or nearly so. These boys do not have the ability to adjust their perspective. At least that is my theory. That a card is graded accurately is no longer important to these graders. Just get the stuff graded and get it shipped. If it is graded too low, the guy getting hammered is not going to stop doing business with them. If the card is graded too high, unlikely there would be complaints. Lots of holder buyers out there.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but to me it's all about the grade. I couldn't care less if it takes 5 days or 30 to grade, I just don't want 8s graded 5 or 9s graded 6, because there's no value added for the money spent. Had this batch graded even decently, I had hundreds more raw cards I was prepared to send in. Now, not going to do it.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe I'm old fashioned but to me it's all about the grade. I couldn't care less if it takes 5 days or 30 to grade, I just don't want 8s graded 5 or 9s graded 6, because there's no value added for the money spent. Had this batch graded even decently, I had hundreds more raw cards I was prepared to send in. Now, not going to do it.

Agree completely. Do the one job right that you are paid to do.

[yanks4]

Peter ...I think you are right on...You know how to grade within a full grade I would guess and I have heard your complaint before. I wonder how many cards are being left ungraded? I would be pissed as you are....so for now they are staying in the binders...maybe forever?......something has gotta give ...these young guys grading have lost their way or is it done purposely???

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by yanks4

Peter ...I think you are right on...You know how to grade within a full grade I would guess and I have heard your complaint before. I wonder how many cards are being left ungraded? I would be pissed as you are....so for now they are staying in the binders...maybe forever?......something has gotta give ...these young guys grading have lost their way or is it done purposely???

I would like to think it's just lack of understanding of how to grade vintage cards. Tiny little flaws inherent in the manufacturing process are not 2 and 3 grade deductions.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah I am not doubting your experience or your eye on assessment. I think the point of reference for most in the grading room is seeing shiny modern cards that are flawless or nearly so. These boys do not have the ability to adjust their perspective. At least that is my theory. That a card is graded accurately is no longer important to these graders. Just get the stuff graded and get it shipped. If it is graded too low, the guy getting hammered is not going to stop doing business with them. If the card is graded too high, unlikely there would be complaints. Lots of holder buyers out there.

This is an interesting discussion which has hijacked Bobby's submission thread.

I was not an early adapter of having cards graded. Graded coins essentially killed coin collecting and I thought the same might be true for baseball cards. I eventually relented and joined the PSA collectors club with its voucher for 7(?) free submissions. I consider myself a pretty tough grader. Like Peter, I have a hard time determining if a card has been altered. I have been on both sides of the PSA grade surprises. I submitted a sweet 1963 Fleer Koufax which I thought was a dead 7. It was graded a 5. As I looked at the card under a loupe, I could see why the card graded lower. I had 1975 Yount and Brett rookies which I thought would grade a 6 come back as 7's. A 68 Mantle maybe a 4-5 came back as a 6. A 1970 Clemente another dead 7 or 8, returned as evidence of being altered.

The consensus on the board seems to be that the third party grading companies have tightened their grading standards. The TPG companies have posted the grading standards since inception. The grading standards should drive the grade with no allowance given for a card printed in 1911 or 2023. Early on the bulk of cards being submitted for grading were likely vintage cards. The one of one, historic cuts and autographed cards were not as prevalent as today. Is it clear that grading was far more lenient to build and establish the vintage card market? Collectors were happy to see their collection receiving mint+ grades and submitted more cards. If it is true that generous grading was the norm what happens when 700 E98's are found in Defiance, Ohio ( https://statelinesportsnetwork.net/2...l-card-find/)? The majority of that find were mint or better. An inherent bias exists on this board for new holders vs old holders or for no holders at all. New holders fetch more iron and in theory were graded under tougher standards, hence a truer grade.

I agree with Chase that the graders are used to seeing shiny, laser cut cards because I assume post 2010 cards make up the majority of the submissions. I believe that the bulk of high end vintage cards have already been slabbed. Oh, there will vintage finds from time to time but nothing like the 1952 Topps Rosen find or the Black Swamp find. I hope I am wrong, I want to find a stash of cards and I don't want to see the hobby go the way of coin collecting.