1967 Topps 6th Series

[Cliff Bowman]

Another one finally popped up, unfortunately it's not a breakthrough puzzle piece, not yet anyway. Derrell Griffith is above Bob Barton, they are likely in the 3 slots of the Brooks Robinson Checklist and Tony Perez rows or in the 3 slots of the Tony Perez and Pirates Rookie Stars rows. I also found a Dennis Ribant above Ron Campbell but that was already determined.

[Cliff Bowman]

Jerry Adair is to the left of Phil Ortega, the ninth card on the 3x Brooks Robinson row. The last letter on the first line is g, the last letter on the second line is d, the last letter on the third line is n, the last letter on the fourth line is f, the last symbol on the fifth line is -, and most importantly the Ortega is the only card in the 6th Series missing the line under the career totals, that line is missing on the Adair miscut.

[Cliff Bowman]

Bob Barton is above Ted Davidson which puts Barton as the third card in the 3x Pirates Rookie Stars row and also puts Derrell Griffith as the third card in the 3x Tony Perez row because Griffith is above Barton. Every Ted Davidson card has an ink dot in the same exact spot as the card under Barton on the miscut.

[Cliff Bowman]

Wouldn't you know it, a much better example shows up on eBay the next day, Adair to the left of Ortega.

[JollyElm]

After a search, it seems that the weird missing upper part of the word "DODGERS" in the Ortega cartoon was never corrected.

[bb66]

Great work Cliff!!

[deweyinthehall]

Nice finds....Dean's has been loading a crap ton of 67s onto eBay which I have been scrolling through each day without luck...progress!

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Nice finds....Dean's has been loading a crap ton of 67s onto eBay which I have been scrolling through each day without luck...progress!

Between them and COMC it’s difficult to do these searches, if they were listings of newly acquired cards it would be great but all they are doing is recycling their old stock in a barrage of new listings.

[Kevvyg1026]

So, I think we are down to two cards missing in the layout of this series. If only the 1966 series 6 (or series 4), or even the 1969 series 3 were so easy (lol). It's only taking us about a year to get to this point.

[bb66]

Kevvy this has given us great info.The work you and Cliff have done is amazing. Others have chimed in with help,too. So many questions by solving the '66 7th series and now this tough hard- to- figure '67 6th series. Knowing the short prints and the location of cards on the slits is huge for both sets.

I know you have figured out other series layouts on '60's sets. I need to look back at past posts and see which series you and Cliff have determined to have short prints on other sets, too.

[Kevvyg1026]

This is what I show:

1960 - We haven't spent much time on the sheets for this year. There is a some uncut material (a slit from series 1, a panel with Maris etc.), but I don't have info on all of the series.

1961 - We know all ten rows in series 1, but not the pattern used. However, we believe we know the 3x vs 2x rows. Series 2 & 3- one slit is known, so the entire sheet is known. Series 4 - I only have a few miscuts, so I don't think the sheet is known. Series 5 - a lot of work has been done by others and I show that the entire sheet is known. Series 6 has 77 cards, but I do not show that the pattern is known. Finally, there is enough information to reconstruct the 66 card run for series 7, anmd so the entire sheet can be established.

1962 - I believe all sheets for this year have been determined.

1963 - I believe all sheets for this year have been determined.

1964 - Series 1 through 4 are known. Series 5 has one slit determined, but the 2nd slit hasn't been finalized yet. Very little is known about Series 6 while series 7 has three of the 7 rows established, but not the entire sheet.

1965 - All ten rows of series 1 are known, but the pattern for the sheet isn't known well enough to establish the sheet. Series 2, 3, 4, & 5 are known as is one slit (but not pattern) for series 7. Little is known about series 6.

1966 - The first three series are known, series 4 has been ony partially reconstructed (approx 40%), series 5 has been reconstructed with the exception of 3-4 cards, very little is known about series 6, and series 7 has been reconstructed (shown in this forum).

1967 - All ten rows are known for series 1 but the pattern for the 2nd slit is still speculative. Series 2, 3, 4, & 5 have enough information available to determine the sheet layouts. Series 6 has been reconstructed except for the placement of 2-3 cards, and although some question the validity of our proposed layout for series 7, I haven't seen anything to change my mind about the 1 by 5x, 1 by 4x, 5 by 3x pattern we proposed.

1968 - All ten rows are known for series 1 but the pattern for the 2nd slit is still speculative. Series 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 have enough information available to determine the sheet layouts.

1969 - All ten rows are known for series 1 but the pattern for the 2nd slit is still speculative. Series 2, 4, 5, & 6 have enough information available to determine the sheet layouts. Series 7 has been reconstructed except for 4-5 cards. Series 3, a 110 card series, is still in the formative stages of being reconstructed. We know most of the leading edge & trailing edge cards, and have a few miscuts, but most of the layout is still TBD.

I hope this helps. If I have made any errors, please PM me.

Kevin

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

So, I think we are down to two cards missing in the layout of this series.

Actually it was three cards but I figured there was no way that Topps put two team cards side by side so I surmised that the Pirates Team card had to be in the final open spot that doesn't have a team card on either side, between Bobby Wine and Bob Shaw in the 3 slot of the Brooks Robinson Checklist row. I just found a Bobby Wine with a miscut back that shows the Pirates Team card to his right so that confirms it. The last two cards to be placed are Tommy Helms and John Stephenson and the last two open slots are slot 6 on the Bob Miller row between the Giants Team card and Jerry Zimmerman and then slot 7 of the Brooks Robinson Checklist row between the Braves Team card and Marcelino Lopez.

[Cliff Bowman]

Orlando McFarlane is confirmed to be in the 9 slot of the Gary Bell row, the top of LANE from his last name can just be made out at at the bottom of the Merritt miscut. Since the Dodgers Team card is to the left of McFarlane it is confirmed to be in the 8 slot of the Gary Bell.

[Cliff Bowman]

I had forgotten that off center 67 Jerry Zimmerman cards showed the white stats box of the card to his left, but with so many cards still to be placed it didn't really matter before anyway. But now that the 67 6th Series is down to two cards it dawned on me that I should be able to figure out which one it is, Tommy Helms or John Stephenson. I figured out it is John Stephenson for two reasons. First, the white stats box on Helms is a little larger than the white stats box on Stephenson, when I placed each of them against the off center Zimmerman with a sliver of the stats box showing the Stephenson was a perfect fit, the Helms white box is too large. The second reason is that the white stats box on Stephenson protrudes further left than normal, the same as Lachemann which often shows up on slightly off center Giants Team cards. The white stats box on Helms is normal, it is nearly flush with the rest of the back of the card. I am very confident that the sheet is now complete and correct, but I will still search for miscuts for 100% confirmation on cards such as Alou, Indians Rookie Stars, Petrocelli, Horton, and Reynolds.

[deweyinthehall]

By request, here is a mock-up of one of the slits for the 6th series, based upon the work done by Cliff and Kevvy, among others.

Guys - let me know if I misplaced any by accident.

[deweyinthehall]

Getting this error when trying to upload the image:

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.


Can anyone offer any suggestions or ideas? I have previously posted other similar images of the same file types, etc.

File name/type is: 1967 6 for Net54.PNG

It is 13.4 MB - could it be too large?

[deweyinthehall]

Got it! Changed file type from PNG to JPG, although no idea why that should have made a difference....

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Got it! Changed file type from PNG to JPG, although no idea why that should have made a difference....

Beautiful! Thank you!

[bb66]

That looks great!

[Elberson]

Great works guys

[Cliff Bowman]

Confirmation of #499 Indians Rookie Stars to the right of Orlando McFarlane in the 10 slot of the 4x Gary Bell row, which means although there aren't any miscuts yet with proof of 4x Felipe Alou being in the 7 slot of the Gary Bell row he has to be through the process of elimination.

[Cliff Bowman]

I had zero doubt on this one but this back miscut from GM Cards on eBay confirms Lee Thomas is to the right of Ron Hunt. It would be nice to find better confirmation miscuts with Felipe Alou and Tommie Reynolds.

[deweyinthehall]

This may be a stupid question (or just a question from an inquisitive idiot) - If SOME cards from GM, Deans, COMC or other dealers appear on eBay, do ALL cards from those sources appear on eBay?

I ask because I do check eBay for potential miscuts etc., and this GM card didn't pop up in the daily check.

Thanks!

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

This may be a stupid question (or just a question from an inquisitive idiot) - If SOME cards from GM, Deans, COMC or other dealers appear on eBay, do ALL cards from those sources appear on eBay?

I ask because I do check eBay for potential miscuts etc., and this GM card didn't pop up in the daily check.

Thanks!

Mainly from eBay but I have gotten quite a few from COMC and Dean's, I got this scan of a 1966 5th Series Gil Hodges with Bill Wakefield to his left from Dean's very recently. It seems like every time Greg Morris has a 1967 set break on eBay one of the 6th Series cards has a miscut back. They don't put miscut in their listings, you have to check each possible card.

[batsballsbases]

Cliff I believe I gave these to you a long time ago.. Was going thru boxes and found them again and found a few others Thomas and the checklist with a tease of info.... I had 2 Hicks cards so it proves menke to the right and talbot to the left.. Some sheet edge cards in there I will let you be the detective... you can see dodgers team edge, and probably a rookie card next to bob tolan 531 checklist card is intresting.... Enjoy

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Cliff I believe I gave these to you a long time ago.. Was going thru boxes and found them again and found a few others Thomas and the checklist with a tease of info.... I had 2 Hicks cards so it proves menke to the right and talbot to the left.. Some sheet edge cards in there I will let you be the detective... you can see dodgers team edge, and probably a rookie card next to bob tolan 531 checklist card is intresting.... Enjoy

Holy &$@%! That’s amazing! With these that should confirm everything and put this sheet to bed. Thank you!!

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Holy &$@%! That’s amazing! With these that should confirm everything and put this sheet to bed. Thank you!!

Glad to help lets see the sheet after you do the detective work! LOL

[Mbjerry]

This was an interesting thread to read through. Pretty amazing how y’all put this sheet together. As a relative newbie I came away with a couple of questions. One, are the “tough high numbers” just the last series printed? Or can it include the last few series? Two, what makes the high numbers/last series more scarce? Three, how does a cards position in a sheet impact its scarcity or conditional rarity? Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Mbjerry

This was an interesting thread to read through. Pretty amazing how y’all put this sheet together. As a relative newbie I came away with a couple of questions. One, are the “tough high numbers” just the last series printed? Or can it include the last few series? Two, what makes the high numbers/last series more scarce? Three, how does a cards position in a sheet impact its scarcity or conditional rarity? Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1. Yes, just the last series of a set. 2. There are some cases where a lower series in a certain year is scarcer or just as scarce as the high series, 1957 and 1963 are two that I can think of. 3. Topps would release fewer baseball cards in the fall because kids were switching over to football, basketball, and hockey cards. 4. I'm no expert on that but I have heard others say that edge cards and especially corner cards were more susceptible to damage during the sheet cutting process.

[Cliff Bowman]

Thanks to Al (batsballsbases) I believe everything is 100% confirmed now on the 1967 6th Series sheet other than possibly Tommy Helms, John Stephenson, Tommie Reynolds, and Senators Rookie Stars. The miscuts of Tolan to the left of the Marichal Checklist, Horton as a right edge card, Felipe Alou to the left of the Dodgers Team card, Killebrew to the left of Gabrielson, Lee Thomas above Felipe Alou, Indians Rookie Stars to the left of Ribant, Ribant as a right edge card, Hunt to the left of Lee Thomas have all confirmed the rest of the sheet being 100% correct. The Bird Bombers, Mantilla, and Bell rows are the 4x rows, the Miller, Perez, Brooks Robinson Checklist, and Pirates Rookie Stars rows are 3x, so that means all of the known checklists and the eBay sellers that have Tony Perez as a SP are correct but there doesn't seem to be any shortage of them.

[deweyinthehall]

Great day for discoveries!

General question - is/was there ever any rhyme or reason to card placement on sheets? For example, have we ever seen where 2 team cards or two multi-player rookies were directly adjacent in the same row?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Great day for discoveries!

General question - is/was there ever any rhyme or reason to card placement on sheets? For example, have we ever seen where 2 team cards or two multi-player rookies were directly adjacent in the same row?

After looking at and working on all of these 60’s Topps sheets I did notice Topps tried to avoid putting two manager cards, two multi rookie cards, two team cards, etc., side by side, that is why I figured the 67 Pirates Team card wasn’t beside the Giants Team card or the Braves Team card when I was down to three remaining slots on the 6th Series and had to be next to Bobby Wine, which turned out to be the case.

[Mbjerry]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

1. Yes, just the last series of a set. 2. There are some cases where a lower series in a certain year is scarcer or just as scarce as the high series, 1957 and 1963 are two that I can think of. 3. Topps would release fewer baseball cards in the fall because kids were switching over to football, basketball, and hockey cards. 4. I'm no expert on that but I have heard others say that edge cards and especially corner cards were more susceptible to damage during the sheet cutting process.

Thank you. This helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[deweyinthehall]

More confirmation for work already done/surmised - additional confirmation of Burgess in the #2 slot - this version is on eBay. The 3 visible white/bright elements along the bottom line up perfectly with counterparts on Doug Clemens' card.

[Kevvyg1026]

A few counyer examples:
a, The 1966 high number sheet has two sets of two rookie cards side-by-side as well as another pair vertiocally connected.

b. The 1965 high series has a pair of rookie cards vertically attached, plus a few manager/rookie stars cards vertically.

c. In 1964, series 1, there is a vertical set of 3 that has a team/special/team.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Thanks to Al (batsballsbases) I believe everything is 100% confirmed now on the 1967 6th Series sheet other than possibly Tommy Helms, John Stephenson, Tommie Reynolds, and Senators Rookie Stars. The miscuts of Tolan to the left of the Marichal Checklist, Horton as a right edge card, Felipe Alou to the left of the Dodgers Team card, Killebrew to the left of Gabrielson, Lee Thomas above Felipe Alou, Indians Rookie Stars to the left of Ribant, Ribant as a right edge card, Hunt to the left of Lee Thomas have all confirmed the rest of the sheet being 100% correct. The Bird Bombers, Mantilla, and Bell rows are the 4x rows, the Miller, Perez, Brooks Robinson Checklist, and Pirates Rookie Stars rows are 3x, so that means all of the known checklists and the eBay sellers that have Tony Perez as a SP are correct but there doesn't seem to be any shortage of them.

Glad to help Cliff I know you worked hard on this sheet so at least I believe you can say the 6th series is done... HooRay.....

[batsballsbases]

Cliff now looking at my 531 chechlist that I posted up I believe that would be Tony Perez that is at the bottom of that checklist..... See if you agree...

[Kevvyg1026]

Yes, we have similar miscuts that show Perez is below check 7 at at least one place on the sheet. Your post definitely looks like Perez below that checklist

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Yes, we have similar miscuts that show Perez is below check 7 at at least one place on the sheet. Your post definitely looks like Perez below that checklist

+1

[Cliff Bowman]

A few new ones, Tommie Reynolds is confirmed to the right of Tribe Hill Aces, Tim McCarver is confirmed to the right of Bob Shaw, and Bill Rigney is above Bob Shaw. About the only ones left to be 100% confirmed are John Stephenson and Tommy Helms.

[deweyinthehall]

I have Stephenson confirmed to the left of Zimmerman in the 6th column - confident this was confirmed someplace earlier in this thread based on some photographic evidence.

Yes - Helms is the only card in the series which, to my knowledge, still has no visual confirmation of either its left or right neighbors or which column it's in.

[king11]

Here is Stephenson to the right of the Giants checklist:

[king11]

And here is Stephenson above Ron Hunt:

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by king11

Here is Stephenson to the right of the Giants checklist:

You are The Man! You wouldn't happen to have any miscuts of 1969 Topps 7th Series Joe Pepitone, Ted Williams, Gene Mauch, NL Rookie Stars (Darrell Chaney), or 1966 Topps 4th Series miscuts would you ?

[king11]

Thanks! It was fun to contribute to such a great project. I don't have any of the 1969 Topps miscuts you mentioned, unfortunately. I probably don't have any 4th series 1966 Topps either, but I'll double check later in the week. I'll put them all on my watchlist, though.

[deweyinthehall]

BBCEmporium has been listing a crap ton of '67s lately - more than 30 of each card in some cases, including hi numbers.

They finally got around to the 6th series today, and all they had of note was this Bob Shaw which confirms his placement next to the Pirates team card.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

BBCEmporium has been listing a crap ton of '67s lately - more than 30 of each card in some cases, including hi numbers.

They finally got around to the 6th series today, and all they had of note was this Bob Shaw which confirms his placement next to the Pirates team card.

That is awesome! I had to buy it after you outed it. I believe the only card in the Series not yet confirmed is Tommy Helms, but if the other 76 cards are 100% confirmed then Helms has to be to the right of the Braves Team card through the process of elimination.

[deweyinthehall]

I went through the listings in more detail and managed to visually confirm O'Toole to the left of Hall and Dierker to the left of Humphreys - I don't think there had been visual evidence of these placements previously.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

BBCEmporium has been listing a crap ton of '67s lately - more than 30 of each card in some cases, including hi numbers.

They finally got around to the 6th series today, and all they had of note was this Bob Shaw which confirms his placement next to the Pirates team card.

The seller also has the Brooks Robinson Checklist and the Pirates Team card from the same exact miscut sheet, too bad the Bobby Wine is missing. Some poor kid bought a nickel pack back in the summer of 1967 and the pack was full of these miscut cards.

[bb66]

Wow-amazing!!