First Hall of Famer with a PED suspension?

[packs]

I don't think it helps to discuss philosophical things like Dead Ball to Lively Ball or 154 games to 162 games in relation to an issue like PEDs and steroids. There is no similarity or common thread in my opinion.

Universal changes to the game (dead ball to lively ball, 154 games to 162, evolving stadium dimensions, evolutions in the manufacturing of the baseball itself, advances in medicine) affect every team and player equally. I'm not sure how that relates to individual players choosing to cheat.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think it helps to discuss philosophical things like Dead Ball to Lively Ball or 154 games to 162 games in relation to an issue like PEDs and steroids. There is no similarity or common thread in my opinion.

Universal changes to the game (dead ball to lively ball, 154 games to 162, evolving stadium dimensions, evolutions in the manufacturing of the baseball itself, advances in medicine) affect every team and player equally. I'm not sure how that relates to individual players choosing to cheat.

Packs, I'm not disparaging you, just trying to understand you and your point of view, and maybe help shed some light on some things you maybe aren't considering.

You specifically named and blamed McGwire and Sosa for making baseball exponentially worse, not all the other PED users, just those two, which doesn't make sense.

They brought in money and eyes but made baseball exponentially worse. The whole reason we're even discussing the topic is because of what these two chose to do. They do not belong in the Hall of Fame.

That response of yours was to a comment made by another poster that said they thought McGwire and Sosa would get into the HOF first. They, McGwire and Sosa, most certainly were not the only ones making such choices though.

And when I asked you how they, McGwire and Sosa, had made baseball exponentially worse, you couldn't give me an exact, specific answer, just asking me my same question right back at me, and some other things along the lines that baseball was no longer "real" because of them. But you also added the one and only, somewhat specific, single reference about how because of them, McGwire and Sosa, there are now discussions about things like who "the REAL home run king" is. I find that very telling that that is the only specific response you seem to have actually given to the question of what was done to make baseball worse by McGwire and Sosa. It is not necessarily the game itself that was made worse, it seems to be more the fame and reputations of certain players whose record(s) were eclipsed that you feel has somehow been equated to ruining the overall game of baseball itself.

And that was why I brought up all the changes that took place to end the Dead-Ball Era, to point out how other changes made to the game of baseball in the past also affected and replaced records of even earlier, well-loved players, just like you're saying happened to "the REAL home run king" because of the PEDs. That is the relevance of why I brought that all up, to show how other records have been impacted and replaced because of other rules and game changes over the years as well. But you only seem to vilify the PED users, specifically McGwire and Sosa, as making baseball unreal and exponentially worse because PEDs were ultimately banned, and therefore the PED users were/are considered cheaters, and therefore unworthy of ever being given any HOF consideration. But when I also asked about other known cheaters in the baseball HOF, specifically spitball pitchers, you, and many others, seems to not care about that at all. Which I'll say once again, makes no sense. Cheating is cheating, how is one form different than another in whether a player is deserving of HOF consideration or not? Or is the thinking somehow that because a PED user is on those PEDs every single time they come to bat, and for every single pitch they see, whereas a spitball pitcher or corked bat user doesn't always throw a spitball or use a corked bat for every single pitch they throw/see, that somehow makes them so much better than someone using a PED?

It seems the issue that some people may have with PED users doesn't really come down to cheating at all, just that records once thought as inviolate are no longer the records, and PED use is possibly considered the sole reason. Why else would other known cheaters already in the HOF be left alone? Seems there is at a minimum, some kind or type of a dual standard being applied to ballplayers during the PED era, when a preponderance of the MLB players are rumored to have taken part in the PED usage. So, when most ballplayers are cheating, which more or less can possibly negate anyone having an advantage over anyone else, that is bad, but when only a very few ballplayers cheat, so that they definitely do have a decided advantage over most everyone else, that isn't so bad, and in some instances is sometimes even looked upon as good. Those FACTS makes absolutely no logical, common sense at all!

Again, I am not for the use of PEDs since they have officially been banned by MLB, but to so completely and excessively vilify and deny any real HOF consideration for the users for doing so before any ban existed, or during the period when MLB really didn't care and passively supported the practice IMO, seems completely wrong, especially in light of the fact that there are many other known cheaters that are already in the baseball HOF.

[packs]

I answered you twice and I'm not going to read your entire post. I don't feel disparaged by you because I don't think you're really challenging me in any way.

The PED era went into high gear in 1998. Why do I think that? Because that was the year Sosa and McGwire chased the home run crown. It was the year that PEDs came into the public eye, in my opinion. The only time I can remember anyone considering something weird was going on before that was when both Brady Anderson and Todd Hundley of all people managed to hit 50 and 46 home runs in 1996 out of nowhere.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by packs

I answered you twice and I'm not going to read your entire post. I don't feel disparaged by you because I don't think you're really challenging me in any way.

The PED era went into high gear in 1998. Why do I think that? Because that was the year Sosa and McGwire chased the home run crown. It was the year that PEDs came into the public eye, in my opinion. The only time I can remember anyone considering something weird was going on before that was when both Brady Anderson and Todd Hundley of all people managed to hit 50 and 46 home runs in 1996 out of nowhere.

The first I remember hearing steroids and baseball was Lenny Dykstra showing up in spring all bulked up 1989 or 1990. Everyone knew and just laughed it off. He was probably the biggest reason MLB banned steroids in 1991.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

The first I remember hearing steroids and baseball was Lenny Dykstra showing up in spring all bulked up 1989 or 1990. Everyone knew and just laughed it off. He was probably the biggest reason MLB banned steroids in 1991.

Hmmmm.... wasn't Canseco even before that? I remember Canseco flexing his muscles in the outflield as Boston fans screamed steroids and I thought it was even earlier but maybe not.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hmmmm.... wasn't Canseco even before that? I remember Canseco flexing his muscles in the outflield as Boston fans screamed steroids and I thought it was even earlier but maybe not.

Might have been, I was talking about first I remember hearing about it. Lenny claimed in his book that he and Canseco were doing steroids before everyone else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Might have been, I was talking about first I remember hearing about it. Lenny claimed in his book that he and Canseco were doing steroids before everyone else.

Whenever it was, it was a surreal, unforgettable scene.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I answered you twice and I'm not going to read your entire post. I don't feel disparaged by you because I don't think you're really challenging me in any way.

The PED era went into high gear in 1998. Why do I think that? Because that was the year Sosa and McGwire chased the home run crown. It was the year that PEDs came into the public eye, in my opinion. The only time I can remember anyone considering something weird was going on before that was when both Brady Anderson and Todd Hundley of all people managed to hit 50 and 46 home runs in 1996 out of nowhere.

Really?

So, your answer is forget everything else, and every other player that ever cheated but is already in the HOF, and your opinion is that McGwire and Sosa are what ruined baseball, so they can't ever be in the HOF because they broke some earlier ballplayer's HR record, so forget about facts, logic, common sense, or anything else that has gone on in baseball since it began.

OK, got it!

[packs]

I brought up McGwire and Sosa in response to someone who suggested they get in first. It’s my opinion that McGwire and Sosa started the PED free fall. Bonds doesn’t hit 73 until after all the attention they got. The Mitchel Report comes into existence after. Balco is after. My opinions are in relation to modern PED use and the modern understanding of PEDs not greenies or any other antiquated method that’s not really in conversation today. That’s my opinion. You don’t have to share it and I’m at peace with that.

[steve B]

PEDs were an open book even pre-1900.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...l%20testicles.

"Galvin, however, is also known for being the first Major Leaguer ever to publicly admit using performance-enhancing drugs.

During the 1889 season, Galvin openly used the Brown-Séquard elixir, an injectable substance derived from testosterone from animal testicles. It wasn’t the same as an anabolic steroid (which had not been invented yet), but is considered a steroid precursor."

Back then the press was apparently ok with it.

Babe Ruths "bad hot dogs" episode is possibly related to a shot of a similar elixir made from sheep testicles (which was by many accounts both wildly ineffective and unsafe. ) Yes, there's claims of other adult illnesses, so far removed it's difficult to tell.

I don't think we can put all the blame on the first generation to try things that were actually effective. Sort of. I doubt I could hit a real fastball even if I got several times stronger... It would probably make a good ballplayer better.

Someone I knew who had been around PEDs in different sports said they weren't what made you stronger, but did let anyone train 7 days a week instead of a more traditional day "on" day "off" program.
Most of it helped heal minor injuries much faster.