T206 Qs

[Mike Eisenbath]

3 questions that likely have been discussed elsewhere but I don't know how to search...

If one were able to assemble a collection of every card in the set, with every error and back variation, how many cards would there be?

What are the 10 rarest (not most valuable or desirable, but rather RAREST based on available pop numbers and educated knowledge)?

If I were to pursue a collection of truly common cards from the set (with most common backs), what would be the reasonable goal? (I'm looking for a ballpark number, not detailed list.)

Thank you!
Mike


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[2dueces]

1. Over 5000
2. That list is out there
3. 500

[t206fanatic]

1 Around 5500

2 Doyle Error, Wagner, Plank, Magie Error, O'Hara Stl, Demmitt Stl, and then probably 4 random Southern Leaguers

3 I think a reasonable goal would be to accumulate them slowly, and have fun!

[Mike Eisenbath]

I'm having great fun! Just curious what cards might be toughest to find. For instance, I've heard the Brooklyn Dahlen, the Washington Elberfeld portrait ... maybe some others. Are some Southern Leaguers notably scarce?

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[Cmvorce]

Brooklyn Dahlen and Washington Elberfeld are harder than your average card but are pretty readily available at all times. demmitt and O’Hara are significantly harder to find (and much more expensive).

[Casey2296]

Hi Mike,
The search function here is not optimal. Best way is to Google the subject then add net54 to the subject line, for example "Rareback T206 net54", etc. lots of archived threads will pop up. Good luck on your hunt!

[Ronnie73]

One of your questions is answered in my signature. I update that number (5258) whenever a new discovery card is found. It is believed that there are more cards that were printed with different back combinations, but I only count confirmed cards that actually exist. That number does not include missing color cards, scrap cards such as the No Prints and the Old Mill SL Brown Backs, Old Mill Blue Backs, most print errors, (Magie and Doyle NY Nat'l. are exceptions.) and any double name or partial double name cards.

[bbcard1]

The rarest might be high grade rare T206s that have not been altered.

[Ronnie73]

There are too many variable's when it come's to rarity. Are we counting rare backs? What about error's and scraps? Do we also take grade's into consideration? There are plenty of one of a kind T206's if you only count one of the variable's above, and even more, if you count all the variable's. There's a whole bunch of T206's that make the Honus Wagner look like a common, depending on how you count things.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

One of your questions is answered in my signature. I update that number (5258) whenever a new discovery card is found. It is believed that there are more cards that were printed with different back combinations, but I only count confirmed cards that actually exist. That number does not include missing color cards, scrap cards such as the No Prints and the Old Mill SL Brown Backs, Old Mill Blue Backs, most print errors, (Magie and Doyle NY Nat'l. are exceptions.) and any double name or partial double name cards.

We need to get together and compare notes one day Ron, I have the mater list of confirmed cards at 5281 I do include the Brown Old Mill SL (14 confirmed) but not other scrap, no prints, Blue Old Mill etc...

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

There are too many variable's when it come's to rarity. Are we counting rare backs? What about error's and scraps? Do we also take grade's into consideration? There are plenty of one of a kind T206's if you only count one of the variable's above, and even more, if you count all the variable's. There's a whole bunch of T206's that make the Honus Wagner look like a common, depending on how you count things.

........and it's called the "Monster" for a reason

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Pat R

We need to get together and compare notes one day Ron, I have the mater list of confirmed cards at 5281 I do include the Brown Old Mill SL (14 confirmed) but not other scrap, no prints, Blue Old Mill etc...

So it looks like I'm missing 9 cards from the list. Not too bad considering the mess that PSA has made of their master registry set, and so many other questionables elsewhere. I'm sure your number is more accurate than mine, since I don't follow the set like I used to. There was around 5 years where it felt like a full time job, but I probably added around 1200 different off backs at that time also. I sure added a bunch of cards, while technically not having any money. It's impossible to do that at today's prices. $30 Cycle's, Tolstoi's, EPDG's, and American Beauty's will probably never happen again.

[RCFire82]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

So it looks like I'm missing 9 cards from the list. Not too bad considering the mess that PSA has made of their master registry set, and so many other questionables elsewhere. I'm sure your number is more accurate than mine, since I don't follow the set like I used to. There was around 5 years where it felt like a full time job, but I probably added around 1200 different off backs at that time also. I sure added a bunch of cards, while technically not having any money. It's impossible to do that at today's prices. $30 Cycle's, Tolstoi's, EPDG's, and American Beauty's will probably never happen again.

Just add a zero to that "30"

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by RCFire82

Just add a zero to that "30"

Adding a zero to just about every T206 I own, is how much the prices have changed. The biggest problem with that, is I can't justify paying the 10x price, after paying the 1x price over ten years straight. Averaging 150 to 300 cards a year, and now I'm lucky if I add 5 cards a year. Because of the current prices, I don't enjoy the set as much as I used to. But I still watch for certain cards, and actually won a T206 last night. I did have that feel good feeling, after winning. So I just need to accept the new price levels.

[steve B]

Some answers added in red.

Originally Posted by Mike Eisenbath

3 questions that likely have been discussed elsewhere but I don't know how to search...

If one were able to assemble a collection of every card in the set, with every error and back variation, how many cards would there be?
Going with cataloged errors and variations, yes 5000-5500, some still aren't known but those are pretty close numbers.
If you get crazy and figure that each position on the sheet is different enough to identify.... make that X 8-10 at least. Which brings us directly to the next question...

What are the 10 rarest (not most valuable or desirable, but rather RAREST based on available pop numbers and educated knowledge)?

I don't have the numbers or list in front of me, but if you count back/front combinations, there are more than 10 less common than the Wagner... One group is pretty well known, another isn't. Many of the tough backs if not all have very few known copies of any given card.

If I were to pursue a collection of truly common cards from the set (with most common backs), what would be the reasonable goal? (I'm looking for a ballpark number, not detailed list.)

Depending on budget, a short set just looking at fronts is what most people go for. So 520, the 524 less The very tough Doyle, Wagner, Plank, and Magie.
On a less substantial budget and just going for commons, a set is easy enough with some effort. I don't know the number.
I've collected slowly and with a variable level of focus for a long time and I'm at around half the set, some better backs since they were mostly ignored years ago, and a few Hof ers.

There are lots of ways to collect them, team sets, just backs, the southern leaguers, the minor leaguers, portraits, the 6 horizontals, pretty much any way you can think of.
What would you enjoy the most?

Thank you!
Mike


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[BobC]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Adding a zero to just about every T206 I own, is how much the prices have changed. The biggest problem with that, is I can't justify paying the 10x price, after paying the 1x price over ten years straight. Averaging 150 to 300 cards a year, and now I'm lucky if I add 5 cards a year. Because of the current prices, I don't enjoy the set as much as I used to. But I still watch for certain cards, and actually won a T206 last night. I did have that feel good feeling, after winning. So I just need to accept the new price levels.

+1,000,000

Have the exact same problem/issue. Extreme difficulty rationalizing the dramatically increased prices for many cards out there, and then ever be willing to actually pay that much for them now. Can't help but remember when I could usually get cards at/for a particular price level/range. And despite fully knowing about and being completely aware and accepting of inflation and other things that may push some prices up over time, still can't justify in my mind paying what now seems like some ridiculously high and undeserving prices. Maybe a bit of an "I'm a collector and this is a hobby." thinking, versus "This is an investment that is going to take off." thinking. Possibly/probably also a function of that inherent, innate resistance many, many people have to change, and its effects on things in our lives.

[Mike Eisenbath]

All fantastic and appreciated thoughts. At first, I thought I would try to collect 520, not being particular about backs (although I do like some more than others). But some HofFers are sooo pricey, even in low grades, I thoughts I would work on commons and pick up a big-dollar card when price and my wallet reached a happy intersection.

But I've noticed some cards rarely appear, either on eBay or at local shows. I ran into a bunch of Old Mill cards last week at a shop (shocking) and paid the OM premium on several simply because I didn't know when I might see them again.

My goal for 2023 was reaching 300 for my Monster number, with specific cards in mind. I'll be hunt The National....I'm at 265. A lot of fun, but always learning new things adds to the challenge.

Plus ... I've picked up those peripheral affinities such as Batter Ups, T205s and finishing my W512 baseball set!

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[2dueces]

My question is why is Dahlen so rare/scarce/expensive? I picked up mine in a $1 common box and it graded an SGC 40. I was shocked just now when I looked at eBay realized prices

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

My question is why is Dahlen so rare/scarce/expensive? I picked up mine in a $1 common box and it graded an SGC 40. I was shocked just now when I looked at eBay realized prices

He is one of the favorites to most likely be put in the Hall Of Fame. But everyone has been saying this for over 10 years, and many started changing the prices to HOF levels, before it even happens. So it's for sure an over priced card for that reason, but prices tend to stay strong because his card is one of the Elite 11 subjects. Even though it should only matter on the Piedmont 350 backs only, some will bump up the EPDG prices for these 11 cards, and other collectors bump the price up, regardless of the card back.

[wnp22]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Hi Mike,
The search function here is not optimal. Best way is to Google the subject then add net54 to the subject line, for example "Rareback T206 net54", etc. lots of archived threads will pop up. Good luck on your hunt!

Small quality of life tip to go along with this: If you do "site:net54baseball.com" (minus the quotation marks) and then your search term, you will get results only from this site. IMO the best way to search forums since a lot of the baked in search functions can kinda be a pain

[2dueces]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

He is one of the favorites to most likely be put in the Hall Of Fame. But everyone has been saying this for over 10 years, and many started changing the prices to HOF levels, before it even happens. So it's for sure an over priced card for that reason, but prices tend to stay strong because his card is one of the Elite 11 subjects. Even though it should only matter on the Piedmont 350 backs only, some will bump up the EPDG prices for these 11 cards, and other collectors bump the price up, regardless of the card back.

Ahhh. Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. So does he make the hall is the question. Not a bad purchase for a $1. Last one in my grade was over $700. 😳

[Kidnapped18]

Current PSA pop reports have 40 cards with 300 or less graded examples including Doyle, Wagner, Plank, Magie, O'Hara-STL and Demmit-STL.
The rest are 33 Southern Leaguers with Cranston having the fewest graded at 229 and a Minor Leaguer Hunky Shaw-Providence at 284.

The remaining 15 Southern Leaguers have between 302 (Revelle) and 354 (Foley White-Houston) examples

[parkerj33]

i would agree with scott reader that rarity #7 is lundgren chicago. elberfeld wa is not far behind either.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

So it looks like I'm missing 9 cards from the list. Not too bad considering the mess that PSA has made of their master registry set, and so many other questionables elsewhere. I'm sure your number is more accurate than mine, since I don't follow the set like I used to. There was around 5 years where it felt like a full time job, but I probably added around 1200 different off backs at that time also. I sure added a bunch of cards, while technically not having any money. It's impossible to do that at today's prices. $30 Cycle's, Tolstoi's, EPDG's, and American Beauty's will probably never happen again.

Great info in this thread.
I remember the times of cheap rare backs. Those were the days ....but then again, everything was cheap!! I go through some 20+ yrs old pricelists of my cards and it's hard to imagine in today's terms.

As far as how to pursue the monster (or subsets), you can do it an infinite number of ways. Whatever your fancy is.

And a card with a common back but uncommon top border.


.

[tibor1]

Which one of the Dahlens is the rare one? I have Dahlen, Boston Nat'l.
Piedmont 350. Is this the rare one. Mine is PSA 3. Centering 40/60
left to right. 45/55 top to bottom. How much is this card worth?

[2dueces]

A Dahlen Brooklyn Piedmont 350 PSA 3 sold for $798 in May.
A Dahlen Boston in PSA 3 sold for $240 this month

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by tibor1

Which one of the Dahlens is the rare one? I have Dahlen, Boston Nat'l.
Piedmont 350. Is this the rare one. Mine is PSA 3. Centering 40/60
left to right. 45/55 top to bottom. How much is this card worth?

Originally Posted by 2dueces

A Dahlen Brooklyn Piedmont 350 PSA 3 sold for $798 in May.
A Dahlen Boston in PSA 3 sold for $240 this month

A Dahlen Boston with a "Red B" with a Piedmont 350 back is an Elite 11 card. That makes it more rare and valuable than the Boston Piedmont 150 back that was probably what sold for the $240. I'd say a Piedmont 350 PSA 3 is more in the $1000+ range.

[tibor1]

@Ronnie73 Thank you for all of the information. All of these varieties
really confuse me.

[Shankweather]

I've searched for this answer, with no luck. If Lundgren Chicago is one of the rarest cards in the set, why are there more of those in both PSA and SGC pops than the Kansas City version? Is it just because it's a popular card, therefore people send it in to be graded more often?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Shankweather

I've searched for this answer, with no luck. If Lundgren Chicago is one of the rarest cards in the set, why are there more of those in both PSA and SGC pops than the Kansas City version? Is it just because it's a popular card, therefore people send it in to be graded more often?

That's the most likely explanation.

I haven't looked in a while, but Magie had more graded examples than Magee...
And when I was looking up a group of cards, the HOF ers were about double the population of the commons.

[SDGsports]

Imagine buying Microsoft or Apple stock for $0.74 then seeing the price go to $5 , and being like , "nah... I was buying that under a buck"

Originally Posted by BobC

+1,000,000

Have the exact same problem/issue. Extreme difficulty rationalizing the dramatically increased prices for many cards out there, and then ever be willing to actually pay that much for them now. Can't help but remember when I could usually get cards at/for a particular price level/range. And despite fully knowing about and being completely aware and accepting of inflation and other things that may push some prices up over time, still can't justify in my mind paying what now seems like some ridiculously high and undeserving prices. Maybe a bit of an "I'm a collector and this is a hobby." thinking, versus "This is an investment that is going to take off." thinking. Possibly/probably also a function of that inherent, innate resistance many, many people have to change, and its effects on things in our lives.

[RCFire82]

Originally Posted by SDGsports

Imagine buying Microsoft or Apple stock for $0.74 then seeing the price go to $5 , and being like , "nah... I was buying that under a buck"

Interesting take

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Pat R

We need to get together and compare notes one day Ron, I have the mater list of confirmed cards at 5281 I do include the Brown Old Mill SL (14 confirmed) but not other scrap, no prints, Blue Old Mill etc...

PSA Registry has 5973 as their number. This includes cards that have not been confirmed.
(Note they list both Demmitt and O'Hara twice for having the Piedmont backs even though Demmitt and O'Hara have one Polar Bear exclusive card each).

I have the number confirmed at 5286 (3 new cards added from last list I had) I include the 14 Brown Old Mill SL in my list.
I do not include the Cycle Manion or the Sweet Caporal Molly Miller. Both are listed in PSA pop reports - Manion PSA 2 and Miller PSA 3.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

PSA Registry has 5973 as their number. This includes cards that have not been confirmed.
(Note they list both Demmitt and O'Hara twice for having the Piedmont backs even though Demmitt and O'Hara have one Polar Bear exclusive card each).

I have the number confirmed at 5287 (3 new cards added from last list I had) I include the 14 Brown Old Mill SL in my list.
I do not include the Cycle Manion or the Sweet Caporal Molly Miller. Both are listed in PSA pop reports - Manion PSA 2 and Miller PSA 3.

Hey Tony. You and Ron and I are pretty close on our master list numbers. There are some confirmed combinations that I think are questionable that I don't include in my master list. For instance Crawford (throwing) is confirmed on most lists that I've seen with a Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 back but I'm pretty confident that the combo doesn't exist so I don't include it on my master list.

[Kidnapped18]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hey Tony. You and Ron and I are pretty close on our master list numbers. There are some confirmed combinations that I think are questionable that I don't include in my master list. For instance Crawford (throwing) is confirmed on most lists that I've seen with a Sweet Caporal 150 factory 25 back but I'm pretty confident that the combo doesn't exist so I don't include it on my master list.

Yes very close indeed on the master lists! I do have SC150/25 Crawford throwing in my list so that takes care of one discrepancy in our lists.
PSA has a PSA 1 graded in their pop reports. I checked the scans (25+) I had of Crawford SC150s this am and all had the 150/30 back.

Maybe when I post what I have we can find out the handful of others.

[Yoda]

We all have seen T206's come and go in our respective collections. I only truly regret selling 2 cards; one was T206 Red Portrait Cobb PSA7 with a EPDG back, while the other (sniff, sob) was a Griffith Batting, PSA7 with a Drum back. I don't miss them because of the money they would bring but rather because they were special. Both were consigned to Mastro through my friend Kevin Struss.
I guess what I am trying to say to a new collector of the set: Keep the special ones, no matter what.

[Kidnapped18]

My previous list of 5284 had
74 American Beauty cards, now it is at 75 (+1)
28 Brown Lenox cards, now it is at 25 (-3)
72 Piedmont 350-460/42, now it is at 76 (+4)
I also had one too many Old Mill BBS due to miscounting (-1)

T206 List of Confirmed Backs
American Beauty (Frame) 190
American Beauty No Frame 37
American Beauty 460 74
Broad Leaf 350 177
Broad Leaf 460 29
Carolina Brights 128
Cycle 350 190
Cycle 450 109
Drum 160
El Principe de Gales 281
Hindu Brown 136
Hindu Red 44
Lenox Black 78
Lenox Brown 25
Old Mill Black 312
Old Mill Black SL 48
Old Mill Brown 14
Piedmont 150 156
Piedmont 350 460
Piedmont 350/460 No. 25 109
Piedmont 350/460 No. 42 72
Polar Bear 250
Sovereign 150 150
Sovereign 350 Forest Green 208
Sovereign 350 Apple Green 66
Sovereign 460 52
Sweet Caporal 150/25 153
Sweet Caporal 150/30 153
Sweet Caporal 150/649 34
Sweet Caporal 350/25 394
Sweet Caporal 350/30 400
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 25 69
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 30 52
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 42 47
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 42 OP 109
Tolstoi 255
Uzit 60
TOTAL 5286 +2

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

My previous list of 5284 had
74 American Beauty cards, now it is at 75 (+1)
28 Brown Lenox cards, now it is at 25 (-3)
72 Piedmont 350-460/42, now it is at 76 (+4)
I also had one too many Old Mill BBS due to miscounting (-1)

T206 List of Confirmed Backs
American Beauty (Frame) 190
American Beauty No Frame 37
American Beauty 460 74
Broad Leaf 350 177
Broad Leaf 460 29
Carolina Brights 128
Cycle 350 190
Cycle 450 109
Drum 160
El Principe de Gales 281
Hindu Brown 136
Hindu Red 44
Lenox Black 78
Lenox Brown 25
Old Mill Black 312
Old Mill Black SL 48
Old Mill Brown 14
Piedmont 150 156
Piedmont 350 460
Piedmont 350/460 No. 25 109
Piedmont 350/460 No. 42 72
Polar Bear 250
Sovereign 150 150
Sovereign 350 Forest Green 208
Sovereign 350 Apple Green 66
Sovereign 460 52
Sweet Caporal 150/25 153
Sweet Caporal 150/30 153
Sweet Caporal 150/649 34
Sweet Caporal 350/25 394
Sweet Caporal 350/30 400
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 25 69
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 30 52
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 42 47
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No. 42 OP 109
Tolstoi 55
Uzit 60
TOTAL 5286 +2

I have 5284 +3 from the 5281 when I posted my numbers in this thread back in May.


American Beauty (Frame) 190
American Beauty No Frame 37
American Beauty 460 74
Broad Leaf 350 177
Broad Leaf 460 29
Carolina Brights 128
Cycle 350 190
Cycle 460 109
Drum 160
EPDG 281
Hindu Brown 136
Hindu Red 44
Lenox Black 79
Lenox Brown 28
Old Mill Black 312
Old Mill Black SL 48
Old Mill Brown 14
Piedmont 150 156
Piedmont 350 460
Piedmont 350/460 No.25 109
Piedmont 350/460 No. 42 72
Polar Bear 250
Sovereign 150 150
Sovereign 350 Forest Green 208
Sovereign 350 Apple Green 66
Sovereign 460 52
Sweet Caporal 150/25 152
Sweet Caporal 150/30 153
Sweet Caporal 150/649 34
Sweet Caporal 350/25 394
Sweet Caporal 350/30 400
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No.25 69
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No.30 52
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No.42 47
Sweet Caporal 350/460 No.42 OP 109
Tolstoi 255
Uzit 60
5284

[lampertb]

Originally Posted by BobC

Extreme difficulty rationalizing the dramatically increased prices for many cards out there, and then ever be willing to actually pay that much for them now. Can't help but remember when I could usually get cards at/for a particular price level/range. And despite fully knowing about and being completely aware and accepting of inflation and other things that may push some prices up over time, still can't justify in my mind paying what now seems like some ridiculously high and undeserving prices. Maybe a bit of an "I'm a collector and this is a hobby." thinking, versus "This is an investment that is going to take off." thinking.

Post of the year, IMHO.

[Ronnie73]

Pat and Tony, I'll have to find some time to sit and count my list. I haven't really kept up with it this past year, but I'm sure Pat's first post likely had everything on my list plus the 9 or so that I was missing at that time. As far as the Crawford card, Pete G and I have been searching for around 15 years with none found.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Adding a zero to just about every T206 I own, is how much the prices have changed. The biggest problem with that, is I can't justify paying the 10x price, after paying the 1x price over ten years straight. Averaging 150 to 300 cards a year, and now I'm lucky if I add 5 cards a year. Because of the current prices, I don't enjoy the set as much as I used to. But I still watch for certain cards, and actually won a T206 last night. I did have that feel good feeling, after winning. So I just need to accept the new price levels.

Originally Posted by BobC

+1,000,000

Have the exact same problem/issue. Extreme difficulty rationalizing the dramatically increased prices for many cards out there, and then ever be willing to actually pay that much for them now. Can't help but remember when I could usually get cards at/for a particular price level/range. And despite fully knowing about and being completely aware and accepting of inflation and other things that may push some prices up over time, still can't justify in my mind paying what now seems like some ridiculously high and undeserving prices. Maybe a bit of an "I'm a collector and this is a hobby." thinking, versus "This is an investment that is going to take off." thinking. Possibly/probably also a function of that inherent, innate resistance many, many people have to change, and its effects on things in our lives.

Just to follow up on Bob's post. Is my T206 collection worth a ton more than it was in say 2018? Hell yeah!! But do I have more fun collecting the set now, with the higher prices? Hell no!! Would I bring back the 2010-2018 prices, even if that meant that I'd lose the insane gain in value of my collection? A big YES!! I was having the most fun in 2011-2015 than I ever had in my whole life collecting something. Because the fun was in the searching and the chase, plus the motivation to continue was the ability to afford a few new cards per week, especially with them being off backs. It was a special time, kinda like being a teenager in the late 80's. Some things can't be replicated.

[MVSNYC]

It's the best set ever, IMO. Ever since I saw (and bought) my first T206 in the summer of 1991, I was hooked...my interest and passion has always been rare backs.

If that interests you, you could start to acquire some of the different brand backs, then slowly add some of the series variations, then factory variations, etc, etc. Then upgrade the backs, better condition, better players/poses, etc. It's fun. My son has really gotten into them also.

Good luck.

Here's my rare back "run"...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/197864...77720307916803