Fanatics buys PWCC

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Bob

You should be writing some of the articles we see out there.

Well written and well thought out

LOL!

Thanks Jeff. I'm sure there are many here on the forum that don't like my writing at all. But after 40-50 years as a CPA working in both the public and private sectors, and being involved with various company/entity sales and acquisitions over the many years, I know how to look at and discuss things from the business and tax standpoints as well as from the pure hobby standpoint. Let's be honest and face it, with all these bigger and bigger companies and entities getting involved in our hobby, and their expansion of the hobby industry (and an industry it now truly is), collectors tend to forget, or ignore, the fact that these hobby industry businesses are doing just that, thinking and operating like businesses first, and not really thinking like a true hobbyist/collector does.

At this point, the major U.S. sports leagues and players unions/associations are flexing their muscles and moving into the collectibles/card area of their respective sports to better control, and ultimately profit even more from, what they do in their respective sports. What will be truly interesting is how they act going forward in regard to the sports card markets, and if they continue to see it grow while also morphing and adopting to changing technology and collector/fan interests. Right now, the modern market is still primarily run through the Breakers, and thus the reason for all the manufactured rarities, crazy multiple inserts and subsets, and so on. The products are tailored for the Breaker market, and the idea that people can get big hits when buying into breaks. Set collecting is pretty much gone with modern collectors, unless you count the minority who still go to buy say a complete Topps base set every year. But even so, they tend to just buy the complete sets, not work on putting any together by buying packs/breaks. As the early Topps/baby boomer generation, that grew up buying Topps packs back then at virtually every five and dime/drugstore in the country, starts to leave us, those kinds of collectors are disappearing, along with their way of collecting and putting together sets and such. The real old vintage, pre-war stuff will always have a market and collector interest, but it will be interesting to see how things will be going forward in the modern markets, especially if Fanatics and others still involved in creating cards start doing things that in some way or manner negatively impact the Breaker distribution system/network as it currently stands. Again, will be curious to see how Fanatics and the major U.S. sports leagues and their players work together to continue, and hopefully/potentially even grow, the current sports card/collectibles market.

With my background and experience, I tend to look at the hobby with both a collector's eye, and that of a businessperson as well. Not very many collectors/hobbyists tend to like discussing the business aspects behind a lot of these industry moves. Like when it was first announced that CSG had agreed to work with and partner in grading cards for PWCC customers, not all that long after they had first entered the sports card TPG service market. In that thread, I mentioned trying to start a serious discussion about the merits and such of what CSG was doing, from a business standpoint, and politely asked that the typical forum trolls cease their crap for at least a little bit to not just blindly start attacking PWCC again so we could possibly have a reasonably intelligent discussion for once, about the business aspects of what CSG was possibly trying to do back then. Of course, the trolls came right out and made any such discussion impossible, even to the point of some accusing CSG being as guilty as they felt PWCC allegedly was, despite the fact that CSG hadn't even graded a card for PWCC yet. There were even those who swore to never do any business with CSG ever, because they dared to do business with PWCC. But wasn't it the other TPGS that had all those supposedly altered/doctored cards in their holders that had previously worked with PWCC, yet none of those people declared they would no longer do business with any of them. I thought that was so stupid and comical, get mad and blame the new TPG business that hadn't done anything wrong yet, but don't really say anything about the earlier TPGs that had all the bad cards in their holders from supposedly working with PWCC. The absolute idiocy of some people here on the forum making such comments, observations, and allegations, and their inability or refusal to ever think about reasonably discussing such matters from the business/industry side, is often very frustrating. The way the current hobby/industry operates, you have to look at it from different viewpoints/aspects, and with a somewhat open mind. Sadly, finding people in the hobby willing and able to be open minded and discuss and look at such things from all sides isn't always that easy to do.

[BobC]

And speaking of moves and such by Fanatics, can't remember where but, I thought I had recently read/heard somewhere that in conjunction with MLB, the teams in future years were going to start having their rookies wear some kind of MLB Debut patch on their uniforms the first few games or so they appear in. My understanding is those patches will then be removed after those first few games, and then get turned over to Topps for inclusion on designated rookie cards for those same players. Shades of the Logoman card successes NBA player cards have seen in recent years. How many of you think Topps would have been able to so easily set up and do something like that, before they were acquired and now owned by Fanatics? Being partly owned by MLB and the MLB Players Association can sure make doing such things happen that likely would never have happened when Topps was independent and on their own. Just another instance/example of how times are changing. Wonder what is next that they'll come up with.

[Mungo Hungo]

Originally Posted by BobC

And speaking of moves and such by Fanatics, can't remember where but, I thought I had recently read/heard somewhere that in conjunction with MLB, the teams in future years were going to start having their rookies where some kind of MLB Debut patch on their uniforms the first few games or so they appear in. My understanding is those patches will then be removed after those first few games, and then get turned over to Topps for inclusion on designated rookie cards for those same players. Shades of the Logoman card successes NBA player cards have seen in recent years. How many of you think Topps would have been able to so easily set up and do something like that, before they were acquired and now owned by Fanatics? Being partly owned by MLB and the MLB Players Association can sure make doing such things happen that likely would never have happened when Topps was independent and on their own. Just another instance/example of how times are changing. Wonder what is next that they'll come up with.

Yes, there were some "articles" (really just dressed up press releases) about this at the end of March. Each player's patch, or part(s) of it, will be used for 1/1s in a yet-to-be-named set later this year or next year. But the larger context was left unsaid and undiscussed. If Topps/Fanatics will be releasing a 1/1 of every player who debuts, what else will they be doing for the same players? It hardly seems likely that the entire effort will go to issuing 300 1/1 cards. Presumably each debut player will get cards that are produced in sufficient volume so that more than one person can buy in ...

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Mungo Hungo

Yes, there were some "articles" (really just dressed up press releases) about this at the end of March. Each player's patch, or part(s) of it, will be used for 1/1s in a yet-to-be-named set later this year or next year. But the larger context was left unsaid and undiscussed. If Topps/Fanatics will be releasing a 1/1 of every player who debuts, what else will they be doing for the same players? It hardly seems likely that the entire effort will go to issuing 300 1/1 cards. Presumably each debut player will get cards that are produced in sufficient volume so that more than one person can buy in ...

Exactly right. And this is probably just a start for them. Like I mentioned earlier, people are going crazy for those NBA Logoman cards. These MLB Debut patches are sort of the same thing, but specifically for rookies. Can already imagine people clamoring for these whenever they do finally come out. And like you, am interested in what else they'll come up with now that the league and the players are basically in on making money off these cards also. I can see Fanatics/Topps churning out team specific items/sets, maybe special cards/items for players/teams that reach certain thresholds or accomplishments, and who knows what else. Will be interesting to see what else they come up with, and how well it takes off and how the hobby community sees and reacts to whatever they do.

[parkplace33]

I wonder if pwcc (or whatever their new name is) will be allowed back on eBay. Stranger things have happened.

[steve B]

Some good points, but I don't see them buying a grading company or a breaker as a move that would be seen as anything but a huge conflict.

Owning a manufacturer and a breaker? No, no way they'd feed the handful of "special" cards to the breaker....

Same for having a manufacturer, auction and grader. How could anyone take those grades seriously if it was the same owner?

[The Detroit Collector]

Fanatics is becoming a monopoly in the industry. You can decide yourself whether its good or bad.

They got their cards.
They got their Vault.
They got their auction site.
They need there grading company.

I dont see them "buying" any breakers, breakers are a subcategory of this hobby in my opinion.

[rjackson44]

As long as they dont buy net 54 ill be happy😎😎

[BobC]

Originally Posted by steve B

Some good points, but I don't see them buying a grading company or a breaker as a move that would be seen as anything but a huge conflict.

Owning a manufacturer and a breaker? No, no way they'd feed the handful of "special" cards to the breaker....

Same for having a manufacturer, auction and grader. How could anyone take those grades seriously if it was the same owner?

Don't disagree at all Steve, but the TPGs have already been rife with huge biases and conflicts from their virtual start. Look at all the people who have owned/controlled these TPGs over the years, and also been involved in the hobby as collectors themselves to some extent. Want to make a bet on which TPG they would submit their cards to be graded to? LOL Or what about TPG contingent grading fees based on cards values? In supposedly providing a completely unbiased and equal service to ALL submitters, it should take approximately the exact same amount of time and efforts to grade and slab a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card as it does for say a common '52 Topps card from the low series. So why the huge difference in grading fees? This is an absolutely inexcusable, direct bias and conflict of interest on the part of the TPGs, yet the hobby community forgives and allows it to happen anyway.

So, before you go saying these acquisitions of related hobby companies would make for unacceptable conflicts of interest, the hobby community for decades now has already shown they don't really care about such conflicts of interest. At least not as long as they can still get the "stuff" they want. Again, another old adage at work, "Stuff trumps everything!?"

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by steve B

Same for having a manufacturer, auction and grader. How could anyone take those grades seriously if it was the same owner?

Watch it happen at some point. One company is already 2/3 of the way there. Why not complete the trifecta of conflict of interest hypocrisy? Makes me sick.

[FrankWakefield]

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

Like everything else, the greed will ruin it, and placate to the "new investors" who will subsequently have substantial losses and leave.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

+1 Exhibitman #8, and

+1 BobC #26.


I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

The athletes and sham graders will be better off for this Fanatics transition; ball card collectors, ball fans, and the hobby will not be.

Mentally playing the first track of Fiddler on the Roof. I guess people are always nostalgic for the good old days, but I neither like nor understand the massive business this has become.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

I lament the demise of Topps. Tradition can be wonderful; you can't buy tradition... Topps had Tradition, and that's now gone.

Wow...what you said led me to a stark realization. The way tobacco cards became a relic of an antiquated, bygone era, Topps cards, too, have now achieved that same obsolescent status. It's over. All that's left for us gum-chewing, card-collecting, perpetual adolescents are the memories of summer days at the corner store, begging our moms to let us rip open one more pack.

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I wonder if pwcc (or whatever their new name is) will be allowed back on eBay. Stranger things have happened.

.. Some of us graybeard observers of baseball cards and big money are pretty sure that there were a lot of I's dotted and a lot of T's crossed and a lot of questions asked and answered before this thing occurred . Just call it a hunch.

..Watch that space. And here's some cards , just for the joy that's in it :



..

[Yoda]

I would certainly hope that during their due diligence Fantastics made a thorough audit of the Vault to make sure all was in order, no cards missing, rightful owners, etc. Ryan makes a great point that if PWCC is in a financial jam who knows where they are getting money to service their debt outside of their weekly auctions, which have had lesser quality material than in the past.

And I would think that Fantastics made it part of the sale agreement for a PWCC reduced headcount.

I wonder what size yacht Brent and Betsy are going to buy? Gotta be bigger than some of those Russian oligarchs

[Bigdaddy]

A couple of observations about Fanatics:

• They seem to have no limits on where they will insert themselves. If it involves sports and a profit can be made, they're in.
• I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.
• Fanatics is just getting started and I believe they will squeeze every last bit of 'hobby' out of the sportscard market. If you were disillusioned with the new card market now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We sure are a long way from Topps printing cards and kids buying packs in stores. And maybe not for the better.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

[*]I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.

They already own CSG. Or rather the majority stakeholder of Fanatics owns CSG.

[Brian Van Horn]

Just saw this in this thread and I am jumping to part two already. I can't wait for what's next in this acquisition and when it hits the fan. Nothing against Fanatics.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

A couple of observations about Fanatics:

• They seem to have no limits on where they will insert themselves. If it involves sports and a profit can be made, they're in.
• I agree with BobC that a TPG might be the next company in their crosshairs. I'll posit that it will be FCG - a new entry into grading, but one that seems to be higher on the technology ladder than most of the others.
• Fanatics is just getting started a I believe they will squeeze every last bit of 'hobby' out of the sportscard market. If you were disillusioned with the new card market now, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Not familiar with FCG, and know literally nothing about them. Seems Fanatics and their owners tend to go for well-established, long-term/time companies to acquire, at least so far. That is why it is an interesting topic to discuss, and will be fun to see where they are going and what they may do next. Despite any possible technological advantages this FCG company may have, I'm guessing the Fanatics people may be more interested in some significant market share and hobby acceptance in a TPG they my look to acquire, for now.

Good points/questions. Like you, I'm curious as to what else may be done in the future to change the sports card/collectibles market going forward.