S74-2 silks info needed

[Silverskulls]

Thanks for all of the helpful info, Bob! Really appreciate it!

[ricktmd]

Mike,

A few of the larger collectors and myself put together a master check list a few years back using our own collections and auction lot history. No S74-1 Chase silks are listed with Red Sun or Helmar backs. Also, no blue ink printed Chase S74-1 silks are notated on my list with any back. I still find unknown variations as I recently picked up a White with blue ink OM back and an Overall blue ink TR (no frame) back. Neither were on the master list. They are unique or previously undiscovered finds. I think it is possible you will find a blue ink S74-1 Chase silk. As far as finding one with a Red Sun or Helmar back, that is possible, but any Red Sun is very rare and Helmar nearly impossible with any player front

S74-1 silks clearly have the 3 color inks. Blue, Brown and as Bob C pointed out a red/ rust color that Burdick refers to as red in the American Card Catalogue. As far as S74-2 I think there was blue ink and a rust/red ink or brownish red. I am not convinced that there is a separate brown and red ink on the colored silks. It is hard to know with all the silk color variations that can skew the ink colors. I have close to 300 colored silks and did a detailed separation of the various master colors of the S74-2 silk on the S74silk website. However light exposure or variation of color make for variations beyond the different ones I show on the site. Best of luck in your hunt for the elusive blue ink Chase.

[Silverskulls]

Really interesting and helpful! Thanks, Rick! The content on the website is top notch too. Really thorough and easy to understand.

Did your master list have a dark red silk Chase with blue ink? I haven’t come across another yet.

Justin

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Silverskulls

Really interesting and helpful! Thanks, Rick! The content on the website is top notch too. Really thorough and easy to understand.

Did your master list have a dark red silk Chase with blue ink? I haven’t come across another yet.

Justin

Rick's information and site is right on the money. However, even the master list put together probably does not include/cover anywhere near a major portion of the S74 silks that likely exist out in the world. PSA doesn't grade them, and if you check SGC's pop reports, they've only graded about 2,000 silks, both the S74-1 white and S74-2 colored silks, in total. Most advanced silk collectors couldn't care less about grading. And I've never heard of anyone ever even trying to produce a fake or counterfeit one, and I don't think trimming one would go over very well. LOL

There are likely a lot more silks, of both versions, out there that are ungraded and in people's private collections than you can imagine. So, the chances of finding some with a specific ink-material color combo that is not on that master list Rick was talking about, may be better than you can imagine also. I've got a few hundred colored silks myself, and contributed to the master list as well. But there is a good chance the master list is not perfect and properly showing everything that is, or isn't, actually out there in the world. So don't give up hope of finding some color combos you're interested in.

What is interesting is that a lot of people that are into the T206 set, with its numerous different tobacco/series/factory number back variations, don't realize the somewhat similar variation options and difficulties and intriguing complexities that exist with the silks. With the S74 white silks, you can have one of four different tobacco brands on the back, with two variations of the Turkey Red backs, so five different advertising backs in total. And then the front images came in potentially three different ink colors; blue, brown and a red/rust ink. So, theoretically, every player in the S74 white silks version set could potentially come in up to 15 different ink color/back combinations. And with the S74-2 colored version silks, there are no backs, and only two different tobacco brands that are now printed on the front of the silks, Turkey Red and Old Mill, but still have the three different ink colors for the images and a truly unbelievable number of material color variations. So, I don't know how many actual different versions of each player in the S74-2 colored silks set could potentially exist, but I'm going to guess it is a heck of a lot more than just 15 each. So, for anyone who likes that particular collecting aspect of multiple variations and other complexities that the T206 set offers, it can be found in the S74 silks as well. But the S74 silks are actually a lot rarer in the total numbers out there than the T206 cards. But they are still out there.

At the Strongsville show today I came across about 4-5 dealers that actually had some S74-1 and S-74-2 silks for sale. Of course, Cobb silks were big and seemed to be the most common, but did see a stack of ungraded but ad-backed S74-1 white silks of common players, in pretty nice condition and with very reasonable sticker prices, along with some nice condition S74-2 colored versions silks of stars and common players as well. And those S74-1 ad-backed silks included an extremely rare Red Sun tobacco silk of HOFer Johnny Evers. So, you never know what you might find out there in the wild, until you go looking for it. Good luck in your search.

[ricktmd]

The Master check list was for the S74-1 silks with ad backs. I'm sure Bob is correct that more exist that are not on the checklist. We did not attempt to put together a checklist for colored silks , S74-2 becaise of the enormous amount of silk colors and the inability to be specific about a certain color. I will say I have not seen a red Chase with blue ink. The nice thing about silks are more are discovered all the time.

[Silverskulls]

Thanks so much, Rick and Bob! This info and insight is really fantastic

-Justin

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Silverskulls

Thanks so much, Rick and Bob! This info and insight is really fantastic

-Justin

Sorry I did not specifically mention that the Master List was only for the S74-1 white version silks. Rick is correct, there was no attempt to even try doing a Master List of the S74-2 colored silks. With all the different material colors for the S74-2 silks, even beginning to try putting a Master List together involving the material colors would be an insane idea.

There are probably a lot more of both types of silks out there than most are aware of, and the chances of the current Master List of S74-1 white silks being a true, final indication of exactly what ink/color/brand combos are or aren't in existence pretty small, at least not without inclusion of a lot more silks in the population sample IMO. But it a great indicator and very good start to get there.

Speaking of which, one thing to mention to other collectors based on such observations has to do with the S74-1 white silks printed with blue ink. I've often seen dealers and Ebay sellers remark that the blue ink S74-1 silks they are selling are rare, and therefore worth a markup or premium. The truth be told, such dealers/sellers are most likely either ignorant, or trying to rip you off. In looking at various players in the S74-1 white silk set, it would appear that not every player had silks of them printed in all three ink colors; blue, brown and red/rust. And it would also seem that there were more players that never had their silks printed using the blue ink, than there were with those not printed using either of the other two ink colors. So, it appears some dealers/sellers would use that fact to then try and argue that apparently ALL white version silks printed with blue ink are somehow rarer, and thus charge you more for them. Don't ever be fooled!

[BobC]

"Interestingly enough, I was able to track down a blue ink S74-1 Chase. I found it on ebay. I had it graded shortly after it arrived to me."



Great Chase pick-up. Nice blue ink silk!

However, did you notice the complete grading screw-up? That is an Old Mill backed Chase silk, so why the heck does the flip say it is a Turkey Red backed silk? How does someone miss something so obvious? And just another reason/example why grading of the silks seems unnecessary to a lot of silk collectors.

[realbigfatdog]

Originally Posted by ricktmd

Mike,



A few of the larger collectors and myself put together a master check list a few years back using our own collections and auction lot history. No S74-1 Chase silks are listed with Red Sun or Helmar backs. Also, no blue ink printed Chase S74-1 silks are notated on my list with any back. I still find unknown variations as I recently picked up a White with blue ink OM back and an Overall blue ink TR (no frame) back. Neither were on the master list. They are unique or previously undiscovered finds. I think it is possible you will find a blue ink S74-1 Chase silk. As far as finding one with a Red Sun or Helmar back, that is possible, but any Red Sun is very rare and Helmar nearly impossible with any player front



S74-1 silks clearly have the 3 color inks. Blue, Brown and as Bob C pointed out a red/ rust color that Burdick refers to as red in the American Card Catalogue. As far as S74-2 I think there was blue ink and a rust/red ink or brownish red. I am not convinced that there is a separate brown and red ink on the colored silks. It is hard to know with all the silk color variations that can skew the ink colors. I have close to 300 colored silks and did a detailed separation of the various master colors of the S74-2 silk on the S74silk website. However light exposure or variation of color make for variations beyond the different ones I show on the site. Best of luck in your hunt for the elusive blue ink Chase.

Interestingly enough, I was able to track down a blue ink S74-1 Chase. I found it on ebay. I had it graded shortly after it arrived to me.

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