Cost basis - Warning tax related topic

Stupe the Second Sacker · #1 04-07-2023, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timzcardz

Discussion of politics is not an unwritten rule.

It is explicitly prohibited: https://www.net54baseball.com/faq.ph...testfaq#faq_12
(Things you may not post, 5th line)

This thread is about the impact to collectors and not the idiotic decision that caused the impact...just so we're clear. It's a bigger drag on the hobby than anything PSA has ever done, but talked about 1% as much.

BobC · #2 04-08-2023, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupe the Second Sacker

This thread is about the impact to collectors and not the idiotic decision that caused the impact...just so we're clear. It's a bigger drag on the hobby than anything PSA has ever done, but talked about 1% as much.

Bob,

This has been talked about here on this forum before, and how the change in the lowered reporting threshold for 1099-K sales reporting on platforms such as Ebay using TPSOs (Third-Party Payment Service Organizations) will impact literally millions of people who sell on Ebay and other online platforms, and not just those in our sports card hobby. Most here on the forum tend to try and stick with just the card/memorabilia collecting hobby itself as the main focus when posting. Also, many dislike when a hobby related tax question is posed and I respond with what they call a War and Peace novel, in trying to properly and fully explain what the new or changed tax law means, and what and how they may be affected, and probably most importantly, what they need to know and do about it in regards to their collecting activities.

As a matter of course, I pretty much know which politician/political party is behind all of these new or changed tax laws, and the reasons and/or intent behind them, as I believe most others here on the forum do as well. So what real need is there to talk about who did what? I would be more/most concerned with what to do about it. And thus, I, and most others, try to limit our discussions to the effects and impact of these new and changed tax laws, and let someone else worry about who put them in place. There are other forums and chat rooms that I'm sure are more politically oriented, and would be perfect to visit to go into discussing the people and political reasoning behind such new laws and changes. The main focus on this forum is to discuss topics and issues that share information and hopefully help other collectors to navigate the hobby. I fail to see how talking about which political person/party may or may not have been behind the new or changed tax law that affects sports card/memorabilia collectors is in any way going to be helpful to them in regards to the hobby, whereas, explaining the impact and effect of these new or changed tax laws, and what they need to be aware of and what they may need to do in response to them, would be a bit more useful, wouldn't you agree?

In the future, simply do not mention a specific person, politician or political party. Keep it generic and no one will give you grief. Had you just said the government ruined the hobby by passing the new tax reporting threshold change, no one would have said a word. Meanwhile, pretty much everyone already knows which politicians, and their parties, were behind this changed reporting requirements passage.

And just so you know, this didn't actually change any tax law itself, just at what point these TPSOs had to start reporting sales to the IRS. I'd already stated this in an earlier post to this thread. The tax laws always called for people to be reporting their profits from sales of things like sports cards/collectibles all along on their tax returns. It was just that since no independent third parties were required to report all such sales to the IRS, that many of those people who going forward are now going to start getting these 1099-K forms (pretty much all of them really, in all likelihood) simply didn't report their sales profits on their tax returns, and are therefore literally guilty of tax evasion. But what I really don't understand, and hope you can explain to me then, is how by enforcing the tax laws already in place, and maybe stopping some people from continuing to cheat on their taxes, is that then guilty of ruining or damaging our hobby? Does it cause many people, and not just people in our hobby, to now have to do extra work in regard to their income taxes, yes, and I am the first to admit it will be a PITA for many. Why else do you think even the IRS went ahead just before this past Christmas and deferred this new reporting requirement for another year? Otherwise, everyone would have been in the middle of all this new tax reporting crap right now. And this isn't anything suddenly new. This change was signed into law back in March of 2021 if I remember correctly, and I believe I may have been the one to first mention and post about it on this forum over that same Summer. And now with this additional year of deferral for the new reporting rules taking effect, one would think that everyone potentially effected would have now had more than enough time to get ready for these changes. And also, since this was supposed to have been in effect since the start of 2022, but the deferral not known of till the latter part of December, 2022, wouldn't one think that if this new tax reporting change was going to damage and harm the hobby it would have already started and been very noticeable and done so last year? But unless I'm mistaken, I didn't see the hobby tanking or being hurt much last year at all, did you?

And as to your comments about how people keep going on and on about PSA ruining the hobby, they are referring to the direct effect that may be falling onto collectors from possibly buying incorrectly graded cards, or more specifically, ones that are actually fakes, doctored and/or altered. Collectors typically do not like buying and owning items that are not what they should be, especially when they or others have paid someone like PSA to ensure that their cards and items are real and as advertised. That kind of treatment can have a direct effect on how collectors perceive and trust/rely upon TPGs for cards they buy, and can thus turn people away from the hobby and possibly have them quit collecting entirely in some cases because of that distrust they now have. Now that could most definitely damage and harm the hobby. Meanwhile, the tax reporting requirement changes don't really affect any collectors buying cards at all, only if they resell them. So, if dealers/sellers are really the only ones directly affected by these new sales reporting rules, does that mean that collectors are going to stop wanting to buy cards and memorabilia? Hell no! And even if the dealers/sellers now have to put up with these new tax reporting changes, do you really think they'll stop selling if they still want to make money and get cash out of their inventories somehow? Again, hell no! PSA's issues and supposed faults would most definitely affect the demand side of the equation. The tax reporting issues primarily affects the supply side. And in all my years in dealing with businesses and the economy, I think that in the case of our hobby, the most harm and damage to it would come from disruption to the demand side. As long as there is demand, and someone is willing to pay for something, someone else will almost always find a way to meet that demand, and make a buck or two in the process, taxes or not. The inventory is out there, and if some dealers/sellers don't want to deal with the IRS, you know that that inventory will somehow eventually end up in the hands of others that will be willing to supply it to those that want it. And that is why, IMO, your statements about how both the alleged PSA issues and these new tax reporting changes are both somewhat equally damaging and harmful to the hobby, and thus should be more equally talked about and debated but aren't, don't really seem to be totally true and the same after all, at least not to me.

And most true collectors don't really collect cards to just turn around and resell them, they collect them to keep them. And yes, yes, I know that some collectors will use cards and items they pick up to occasionally sell to help finance additional card purchases. But ask yourself this question, if such collectors now realize that using certain online platforms and payment services will cause their sales to be reported to the IRS (and thus requiring them to be reported on their tax returns like they probably should have been all along anyway), they can simply look for different venues/ways to keep doing their side sales, but utilize ones that will not require such third-party sales reporting to the IRS. Like using Net54's B/S/T forum, trading in Facebook groups, doing private sales, going to shows, etc. That way they can continue potentially cheating on their taxes, but still get the money they want for collecting purposes. I never advise anyone to cheat on their taxes, but know that pretty much everyone does or has at some point in their life probably not properly reported and paid quite everything they should have for their income and sales/use taxes. LOL

I find it particularly interesting, and also quite comical, when I hear or see someone complaining about something like the government always looking to raise or add new taxes, but then when the government finally decides and gets around to doing something about it and instead goes after the tax cheats that aren't already paying the taxes that they should be, and finally enforcing the tax laws like they should have been doing all along so they don't have to raise or create new taxes, those same people start whining even more when it turns out they are some of the ones that have been cheating the rest of us all along by not properly paying the taxes they should have been to begin with. And I am not pointing a finger at you, or anyone else in particular, on this forum. Just saying.

Eric72 · #3 04-08-2023, 06:50 AM

10/10. Would read again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Bob,

This has been talked about here on this forum before, and how the change in the lowered reporting threshold for 1099-K sales reporting on platforms such as Ebay using TPSOs (Third-Party Payment Service Organizations) will impact literally millions of people who sell on Ebay and other online platforms, and not just those in our sports card hobby. Most here on the forum tend to try and stick with just the card/memorabilia collecting hobby itself as the main focus when posting. Also, many dislike when a hobby related tax question is posed and I respond with what they call a War and Peace novel, in trying to properly and fully explain what the new or changed tax law means, and what and how they may be affected, and probably most importantly, what they need to know and do about it in regards to their collecting activities.

As a matter of course, I pretty much know which politician/political party is behind all of these new or changed tax laws, and the reasons and/or intent behind them, as I believe most others here on the forum do as well. So what real need is there to talk about who did what? I would be more/most concerned with what to do about it. And thus, I, and most others, try to limit our discussions to the effects and impact of these new and changed tax laws, and let someone else worry about who put them in place. There are other forums and chat rooms that I'm sure are more politically oriented, and would be perfect to visit to go into discussing the people and political reasoning behind such new laws and changes. The main focus on this forum is to discuss topics and issues that share information and hopefully help other collectors to navigate the hobby. I fail to see how talking about which political person/party may or may not have been behind the new or changed tax law that affects sports card/memorabilia collectors is in any way going to be helpful to them in regards to the hobby, whereas, explaining the impact and effect of these new or changed tax laws, and what they need to be aware of and what they may need to do in response to them, would be a bit more useful, wouldn't you agree?

In the future, simply do not mention a specific person, politician or political party. Keep it generic and no one will give you grief. Had you just said the government ruined the hobby by passing the new tax reporting threshold change, no one would have said a word. Meanwhile, pretty much everyone already knows which politicians, and their parties, were behind this changed reporting requirements passage.

And just so you know, this didn't actually change any tax law itself, just at what point these TPSOs had to start reporting sales to the IRS. I'd already stated this in an earlier post to this thread. The tax laws always called for people to be reporting their profits from sales of things like sports cards/collectibles all along on their tax returns. It was just that since no independent third parties were required to report all such sales to the IRS, that many of those people who going forward are now going to start getting these 1099-K forms (pretty much all of them really, in all likelihood) simply didn't report their sales profits on their tax returns, and are therefore literally guilty of tax evasion. But what I really don't understand, and hope you can explain to me then, is how by enforcing the tax laws already in place, and maybe stopping some people from continuing to cheat on their taxes, is that then guilty of ruining or damaging our hobby? Does it cause many people, and not just people in our hobby, to now have to do extra work in regard to their income taxes, yes, and I am the first to admit it will be a PITA for many. Why else do you think even the IRS went ahead just before this past Christmas and deferred this new reporting requirement for another year? Otherwise, everyone would have been in the middle of all this new tax reporting crap right now. And this isn't anything suddenly new. This change was signed into law back in March of 2021 if I remember correctly, and I believe I may have been the one to first mention and post about it on this forum over that same Summer. And now with this additional year of deferral for the new reporting rules taking effect, one would think that everyone potentially effected would have now had more than enough time to get ready for these changes. And also, since this was supposed to have been in effect since the start of 2022, but the deferral not known of till the latter part of December, 2022, wouldn't one think that if this new tax reporting change was going to damage and harm the hobby it would have already started and been very noticeable and done so last year? But unless I'm mistaken, I didn't see the hobby tanking or being hurt much last year at all, did you?

And as to your comments about how people keep going on and on about PSA ruining the hobby, they are referring to the direct effect that may be falling onto collectors from possibly buying incorrectly graded cards, or more specifically, ones that are actually fakes, doctored and/or altered. Collectors typically do not like buying and owning items that are not what they should be, especially when they or others have paid someone like PSA to ensure that their cards and items are real and as advertised. That kind of treatment can have a direct effect on how collectors perceive and trust/rely upon TPGs for cards they buy, and can thus turn people away from the hobby and possibly have them quit collecting entirely in some cases because of that distrust they now have. Now that could most definitely damage and harm the hobby. Meanwhile, the tax reporting requirement changes don't really affect any collectors buying cards at all, only if they resell them. So, if dealers/sellers are really the only ones directly affected by these new sales reporting rules, does that mean that collectors are going to stop wanting to buy cards and memorabilia? Hell no! And even if the dealers/sellers now have to put up with these new tax reporting changes, do you really think they'll stop selling if they still want to make money and get cash out of their inventories somehow? Again, hell no! PSA's issues and supposed faults would most definitely affect the demand side of the equation. The tax reporting issues primarily affects the supply side. And in all my years in dealing with businesses and the economy, I think that in the case of our hobby, the most harm and damage to it would come from disruption to the demand side. As long as there is demand, and someone is willing to pay for something, someone else will almost always find a way to meet that demand, and make a buck or two in the process, taxes or not. The inventory is out there, and if some dealers/sellers don't want to deal with the IRS, you know that that inventory will somehow eventually end up in the hands of others that will be willing to supply it to those that want it. And that is why, IMO, your statements about how both the alleged PSA issues and these new tax reporting changes are both somewhat equally damaging and harmful to the hobby, and thus should be more equally talked about and debated but aren't, don't really seem to be totally true and the same after all, at least not to me.

And most true collectors don't really collect cards to just turn around and resell them, they collect them to keep them. And yes, yes, I know that some collectors will use cards and items they pick up to occasionally sell to help finance additional card purchases. But ask yourself this question, if such collectors now realize that using certain online platforms and payment services will cause their sales to be reported to the IRS (and thus requiring them to be reported on their tax returns like they probably should have been all along anyway), they can simply look for different venues/ways to keep doing their side sales, but utilize ones that will not require such third-party sales reporting to the IRS. Like using Net54's B/S/T forum, trading in Facebook groups, doing private sales, going to shows, etc. That way they can continue potentially cheating on their taxes, but still get the money they want for collecting purposes. I never advise anyone to cheat on their taxes, but know that pretty much everyone does or has at some point in their life probably not properly reported and paid quite everything they should have for their income and sales/use taxes. LOL

I find it particularly interesting, and also quite comical, when I hear or see someone complaining about something like the government always looking to raise or add new taxes, but then when the government finally decides and gets around to doing something about it and instead goes after the tax cheats that aren't already paying the taxes that they should be, and finally enforcing the tax laws like they should have been doing all along so they don't have to raise or create new taxes, those same people start whining even more when it turns out they are some of the ones that have been cheating the rest of us all along by not properly paying the taxes they should have been to begin with. And I am not pointing a finger at you, or anyone else in particular, on this forum. Just saying.

yanks4 · #4 04-08-2023, 11:19 AM

BobC....Thank you very much for taking the time to post that most articulate post. I am sure it is a huge help to anyone who reads it ....Thank you!

Stupe the Second Sacker · #5 04-08-2023, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

But what I really don't understand, and hope you can explain to me then, is how by enforcing the tax laws already in place, and maybe stopping some people from continuing to cheat on their taxes, is that then guilty of ruining or damaging our hobby?

Bob...Love your opinions and large bombastic posts, even the finger wagging ones. You might find it interesting, of the three other accountants I've spoken with over the past year, you are the only one who speaks of the change in such glowing terms. The consensus among those I spoke with is that it's ridiculous to set such a low limit and will be an inconsistently interpreted, unmanageable drag on everyone involved, not just the American citizens.

However to your question. How does it ruin the hobby? Let me list the ways. (Let's see if I can "out-wall of words" you.)

It's not a hobby any more. We're all bookkeepers at least and business men at worst. Even if you have no intention of selling this year, you have to keep records and receipts (good luck with that) to be prepared to sell someday. And it's not just card/memorabilia purchase receipts. It's all receipts for all things that can help reduce your tax liability down the road. Did you buy penny sleeves? Save the receipt. Did you drive to the post office, record the date and mileage. Did you go to a show? Save the admission ticket. Hey, should I record the mileage for that too? Did you hand a dealer a wad of cash? Take a selfie of the two of you engaged in the exchange (but remember to blur his face). Has anyone other than business men done this over the last 50 years of baseball card collecting?

I can hear the "I've never sold and I never will!" retorts already. I'd be curious to know the percentage of collectors out there who never sell but instead take their collections to their grave. I'd bet it's a very small percentage. (Today we salute you, Mr. Til Death Card Collector Guy...For you it is still a hobby.)

This new rule is as much about proving you didn't make money as it is taxing those who did. I've completely sold down to zero three times in my life. The first time in high school to buy my older girlfriend a worthy birthday present (that was a mistake), once upon college graduation to finance a month long cross country road trip (not even close to a mistake...the Vegas and Tijuana legs of the trip alone were worth it) and once upon divorce (worth it). Did I make money any time. No. Could I prove it? Also no.

I bring this up because life happens. You might not be planning to sell today, but you don't know what tomorrow brings. Maybe someoday, you'll be making this fun decision...Playing it safe and overpaying the federal government, when you likely need the money the most or recreating years if not decades of records and hoping they pass muster if questioned. Sound fun? Hobbies are fun, right?

(Spare the, "you would've faced this under the old rule too" comebacks. Not once in my 3 experiences, did I approach 20K in sales. I'm guessing more collectors fall in in the $600-$20K value range than the 20K+ range.)

And a note on the tax cheats in our "hobby". It's funny Bob that you point the finger at collectors when you mention this (don't shoot the messenger., it was your example) and not the "cash only" and "cash discount" dealers out there. Isn't that really where you should be directing your sarcasm and ire? Why are the collectors the bad guys here?

Can this change be interpreted any other way than an effort to stick it to the little guy? The big fish were already being reported (well their non-cash transactions anyway). The people who can't afford to consistently pay $5 for gas and $6 for eggs, who find a way to help subsidize their cost of living expenses (expenses that were much more manageable just a couple years ago) are really going to swing the pendulum in Ukraine's favor? At a time when all Americans are being squeezed, rolling out a plan to squeeze them harder seems a little tone deaf, if not evil...especially when we see the unpopular ways the government spends our money.

I wonder how many collectors here were ever charged with "tax evasion" for not reporting their under 20K ebay sales? I'll bet none. If nobody is being penalized for it, is it really cheating? Or is it the accepted norm? Or even...gasp. A hobby! It's a much talked about phenomenon, like PSA FBI raids and lawsuits but like those topics, doesn't really amount to anything in the end. It's just an over used, empty excuse to justify the squeezing of American wallets.

A few other bonus features of the rule...You get a more complicated and expensive tax return! It's not just added bookkeeping and records retention...It's literally more money out of your pocket. How fun is that?

Think you can outsmart the system and call yourself a business and deduct expenses on Schedule C? Well, how does self employment tax sound? Sound fun?

Who doesn't love math? Let's say I bought a card five years ago for $500 and today, being a little more well off, buy a much nicer version of that same card for $2000. Not needing two of the same card, I sell the first for $1000. Did I make $500? Feels to me like I'm out $1000. What say you Bob? How would this get reported? Is that income? Who doesn't love having to explain that?

And what about eBay? For me, it was a huge source of my collecting over the past 20 years. However, over the last couple it's become a picked over carcass as seller after seller has gone underground and/or listed less. Has nobody else felt this difference? How is that good for the hobby?

I'm sure there's more, but for now that's enough.

Exhibitman · #6 04-09-2023, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

I find it particularly interesting, and also quite comical, when I hear or see someone complaining about something like the government always looking to raise or add new taxes, but then when the government finally decides and gets around to doing something about it and instead goes after the tax cheats that aren't already paying the taxes that they should be, and finally enforcing the tax laws like they should have been doing all along so they don't have to raise or create new taxes, those same people start whining even more when it turns out they are some of the ones that have been cheating the rest of us all along by not properly paying the taxes they should have been to begin with. And I am not pointing a finger at you, or anyone else in particular, on this forum. Just saying.

This. The law ain't new; the enforcement effort is.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the underground economy in the United States is estimated to be equal to about 8.8% of GDP. Since GDP is about $20-23 trillion each year, the underground component is nearly two trillion dollars. Just taxing that under long-standing law would cover a gigantic piece of the government's activities. The people 'hurt' by having to pay the taxes they actually owe, boo-friggedy-hoo. Screw them. The tax frauds are just picking the pockets of everyone else.

As for politics, there is a Watercooler section where anyone so inclined can howl at the moon over whatever political nonsense he or she wants without annoying the rest of us who are here to discuss cards. Know it, learn it, live it.

Stupe the Second Sacker · #7 04-09-2023, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This. The law ain't new; the enforcement effort is.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the underground economy in the United States is estimated to be equal to about 8.8% of GDP. Since GDP is about $20-23 trillion each year, the underground component is nearly two trillion dollars. Just taxing that under long-standing law would cover a gigantic piece of the government's activities. The people 'hurt' by having to pay the taxes they actually owe, boo-friggedy-hoo. Screw them. The tax frauds are just picking the pockets of everyone else.

As for politics, there is a Watercooler section where anyone so inclined can howl at the moon over whatever political nonsense he or she wants without annoying the rest of us who are here to discuss cards. Know it, learn it, live it.

Why do people keep clinging to this irrelevent justification like a life preserver? Is anyone in this thread calling the law new?

The sanctimonious comments I see repeated here regarding tax cheats are too much. Who are the "people" of which you speak? John Q. Collector who churns the bottom of his collection and occasionaly makes a few bucks or the Cash is King dealers that fill every show you go to? This new enforcement only nets the former and does nothing about the latter.

Exhibitman · #8 04-09-2023, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupe the Second Sacker

Why do people keep clinging to this irrelevent justification like a life preserver? Is anyone in this thread calling the law new?

The sanctimonious comments I see repeated here regarding tax cheats are too much. Who are the "people" of which you speak? John Q. Collector who churns the bottom of his collection and occasionaly makes a few bucks or the Cash is King dealers that fill every show you go to? This new enforcement only nets the former and does nothing about the latter.

That argument is entirely based on a logical fallacy: "two wrongs make a right." Everyone is supposed to pay the taxes they owe. You cannot justify one tax cheat by pointing out another one you think is worse.

Also, you have your facts wrong. The 1099 threshold lowering law is new; it was passed in 2021 to commence 1/1/22 and was kicked over a year after intense lobbying by the facilitated marketplace vendors like eBay who will have to prepare the 1099s.

More to the point, whether the 1099 law is new or not is irrelevant. As the CPAs here have repeatedly pointed out, the 1099 is merely a mechanism for the IRS to check compliance with existing tax reporting requirements. The underlying obligation to declare taxable income has been around for over a hundred years.

Calling people you disagree with sanctimonious is not an argument, it is an ad hominem attack.

The fact you clearly do not want to acknowledge is that only someone who has not been reporting his card-related income will get stung by the 1099 rules. Anyone who declares his income and pays his taxes already has no need to be concerned with the 1099 threshold changes. I got a 1099 in 2021 under the old threshold rules. Meant nothing to me because I maintain books for my card selling activity and report my income.

Stupe the Second Sacker · #9 04-09-2023, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That argument is entirely based on a logical fallacy: "two wrongs make a right." Everyone is supposed to pay the taxes they owe. You cannot justify one tax cheat by pointing out another one you think is worse.

Also, you have your facts wrong. The 1099 threshold lowering law is new; it was passed in 2021 to commence 1/1/22 and was kicked over a year after intense lobbying by the facilitated marketplace vendors like eBay who will have to prepare the 1099s.

More to the point, whether the 1099 law is new or not is irrelevant. As the CPAs here have repeatedly pointed out, the 1099 is merely a mechanism for the IRS to check compliance with existing tax reporting requirements. The underlying obligation to declare taxable income has been around for over a hundred years.

Calling people you disagree with sanctimonious is not an argument, it is an ad hominem attack.

The fact you clearly do not want to acknowledge is that only someone who has not been reporting his card-related income will get stung by the 1099 rules. Anyone who declares his income and pays his taxes already has no need to be concerned with the 1099 threshold changes. I got a 1099 in 2021 under the old threshold rules. Meant nothing to me because I maintain books for my card selling activity and report my income.

This is too rich. Point of fact. You're the one who said the law isn't new. Please scroll up and read your own words. I'm the one questioning why you're even bringing that up. If your own retort confuses you, how do you expect anyone else to follow it? Here...I'll save you the scroll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

This. The law ain't new; the enforcement effort is.

Second, to the defenders of the old/new/revised/whatever enforcement...If it doesn't get the primary offenders, what's the GD point? It's a lot of extra effort for all, with little payoff. The proverbial juice isn't worth the squeeze. If you want to make a difference, abolish cash sales at card shows. Then you'll see some added revenue. Suddenly, every mom & pop dealer in the country has the best sales year of their lives.

raulus · #10 04-09-2023, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupe the Second Sacker

Second, to the defenders of the old/new/revised/whatever enforcement...If it doesn't get the primary offenders, what's the GD point?.

One word: scoring.

If you want to spend money on something else, but want to offset it with projected revenues, then the approach is to implement a change like this. The math wizards stick the proposed change in their black box and come up with a guesstimate about how much revenue it will raise.

Whether or not it actually will raise any revenue is less important than how it scores.

In general, this isn’t partisan. It’s just how Congress operates when it comes to revenue and spending bills.

BobC · #11 04-10-2023, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stupe the Second Sacker

This is too rich. Point of fact. You're the one who said the law isn't new. Please scroll up and read your own words. I'm the one questioning why you're even bringing that up. If your own retort confuses you, how do you expect anyone else to follow it? Here...I'll save you the scroll:

Second, to the defenders of the old/new/revised/whatever enforcement...If it doesn't get the primary offenders, what's the GD point? It's a lot of extra effort for all, with little payoff. The proverbial juice isn't worth the squeeze. If you want to make a difference, abolish cash sales at card shows. Then you'll see some added revenue. Suddenly, every mom & pop dealer in the country has the best sales year of their lives.

You don't have a friggin' clue about any of this, do you? I was originally going to respond to every point in your completely idiotic comeback to my earlier post, but I can clearly see that would be a total waste of time and effort. So I'll just address some of the more ridiculous statements/accusations. And this is not to be political at all, but after your one post where you got called out about politics, and then made some specific remarks in your comeback to me about.......well, here's the quote:

"Can this change be interpreted any other way than an effort to stick it to the little guy? The big fish were already being reported (well their non-cash transactions anyway). The people who can't afford to consistently pay $5 for gas and $6 for eggs, who find a way to help subsidize their cost of living expenses (expenses that were much more manageable just a couple years ago) are really going to swing the pendulum in Ukraine's favor? At a time when all Americans are being squeezed, rolling out a plan to squeeze them harder seems a little tone deaf, if not evil...especially when we see the unpopular ways the government spends our money."

You've pretty much sealed the envelope on which political point of view you're with, but still, what a comical bunch of crap you've just spewed. At least now I know I have to dumb down my response to you even more. Hey, I do have to tip my hat to you though in that you at least learned not to mention a particular person or political party in your posts so as to not violate the "no politics" rule. But what is so surprising is that you'd listen to and learn from myself and others on that point, but then totally disregard and blow us off on everything else we were trying to educate you about. But again, now that I know where you're coming from politically, why should I be at all surprised in your overall responses?

Speaking of which, your response to Adam about him being wrong when he, and others like myself, tried to tell you there is no new tax law, just shows your obstinance and ignorance on this topic. Here's another of your quotes I'm going to use to demonstrate the idiocy in your comments and thinking:

"I wonder how many collectors here were ever charged with "tax evasion" for not reporting their under 20K ebay sales? I'll bet none. If nobody is being penalized for it, is it really cheating?"

LOL You just basically asked the age old question/joke, "If a tree falls in the forest, does it still make a sound?" Of course it does, even if there is no one around to hear it. So, what you're basically asking/saying is that if someone who had card sales of under $20K, which didn't get reported to the IRS on a 1099-K form, and as a result doesn't report their sales on their tax return that year, how can they ever be considered guilty of cheating (ie: breaking the law and being a tax evader), right? Well, I have a perfect analogy to hopefully explain this in much simpler terms, which you obviously need to finally understand this.

If you are driving down the street doing 50 MPH, as you pass a sign indicating the speed limit is only 35 MPH, are you breaking the law, even if there isn't a cop with radar on the side of the road to catch you and give you a ticket? Well of course you are, the answer is YES, you're breaking the law! Or are you one of those people who think the law doesn't apply to them, especially if they aren't actually caught? (Which based on your obvious political leanings may explain some of your nonsense.) And here's where the fun part begins. So, it then turns out that people living on that street are upset with all the speeders and worried about their children's safety or getting hit as they back/pull out of their driveways, and so on, and so they complain to the city. And in response, the city goes ahead and installs one of those cameras to catch the speeders since they don't have enough cops to sit on the side of that particular road all day. And then the next day you go driving down the road doing your usual 50 MPH, and end up getting a ticket, to which you start crying and moaning about. The 35 MPH speed limit law had been, and still was, there and in effect all the time. (And this would be like the "old Law" that Adam was referring to.) You just hadn't been caught breaking the law before. But now you go ahead and start bitching and moaning about how it is going to start taking you all this extra time to get where you're going, how stupid it is to have to drive so slow, how this is going to penalize and primarily go after all the local people who actually live on that street, and on and on. And what may even be funnier is if those in the group now complaining about being caught by the speed camera included some of the same people who complained to the city about all the speeders in the first place. I can hear them now (say this in a high, whiny voice), "Gee, I meant ticketing everyone else that was speeding, but not me!" LOL This new tax reporting rule isn't a new tax law, it is the new speed camera set up and helping to now catch all the speeders that had been breaking the speed limit law that was there and in place all along. Do you finally get it now, or are you going to continue denying it, like someone continually saying the Earth is flat?

And as to you erroneously calling out Adam for supposedly saying something contradicting himself about whether a particular law was new or not, are you really that ignorant to not understand that the law he was referring to as not being new was the one that calls for everyone to report and pay taxes on their sales income? The quote you later referred to him supposedly contradicting himself with referred to the change in a totally different law regarding when certain independent third-parties have to start reporting sales by others to the IRS on 1099-K forms. That is the new law he was referring to, and really has nothing to do with the old, long established law about reporting and paying taxes on sales income. I can just see you having sold enough to have hit that $20K and 200 transactions threshold for getting a 1099-K form sent to you in some prior year, and then the 1099-K form sent to you getting lost in the mail so you never received it. Listening to the way you talk, I can just picture you thinking and saying to yourself that since you didn't get any 1099-K form, I don't have to report my sales that year on my tax return. And then I'd love to be there and see and hear your comments and reactions when you eventually ended up getting and opening that letter later on from the IRS telling you about how much in taxes, interest, and penalties you now owed them because you failed to report your sales income on your tax return. You somehow idiotically appear to think that unless you get a 1099-K form reporting your sales income to the IRS, you aren't required to report and pay tax on that income at all. I'd especially love to be there then when you tried to then complain and argue about it with an IRS agent, and the dressing down you'd get, and fully deserve, if this ever had happened.

"This is too rich. Point of fact. You're the one who said the law isn't new. Please scroll up and read your own words. I'm the one questioning why you're even bringing that up. If your own retort confuses you, how do you expect anyone else to follow it? Here...I'll save you the scroll:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
This. The law ain't new; the enforcement effort is."

And speaking of saying things that contradict oneself, all your lovely comments claiming I kept pointing my finger at and just calling "collectors" tax cheats and tax evaders. For example:

"And a note on the tax cheats in our "hobby". It's funny Bob that you point the finger at collectors when you mention this (don't shoot the messenger., it was your example) and not the "cash only" and "cash discount" dealers out there. Isn't that really where you should be directing your sarcasm and ire? Why are the collectors the bad guys here?"

In another attempt to try and educate you, go back to my earlier post and re-read it, and this time pay very close attention to exactly everything I said in it. Assuming you can adequately read and comprehend things (which I'm having severe doubts about based on all the things I've seen and read from you so far), you should be able to see that not once did I ever say or refer solely to "collectors" as being tax cheats or evaders. In fact, in disputing you in an earlier post I very clearly indicated that, and I quote, "Meanwhile, the tax reporting requirement changes don't really affect any collectors buying cards at all, only if they resell them." Whenever I made reference to anyone being a possible tax cheat or evader, I clearly mentioned them generically as "people" or others, never directly or as just "collectors". And for the record, that reference to "people" also included dealers and those that just did cash transactions as well. Or didn't you understand that? I guess I should have written even more in that earlier post so as to have specifically mentioned dealers that do cash transactions and don't report those cash transactions on their tax returns can, and should, be considered as tax cheats and tax evaders as well. Silly me for not having listed every possible person or entity that could be considered a tax cheat/evader for not listing all their cards sales on their tax returns. Oh but wait, you bitched at me for writing too much as it is. So if I don't write down all these possible tax cheats/evaders, you bitch at me, and if I do go ahead and write down even more stuff to include them, you bitch at me about that. Starting to see and understand about having to dumb things down for you yet? Back on topic, and I quote, "is how by enforcing the tax laws already in place, and maybe stopping some people from continuing to cheat on their taxes, is that then guilty of ruining or damaging our hobby". Or this other example, "The tax laws always called for people to be reporting their profits from sales of things like sports cards/collectibles all along on their tax returns. It was just that since no independent third parties were required to report all such sales to the IRS, that many of those people who going forward are now going to start getting these 1099-K forms (pretty much all of them really, in all likelihood) simply didn't report their sales profits on their tax returns, and are therefore literally guilty of tax evasion."

I never said this change was going to be fun, or nice. I did say it was going to be a PITA. And for your comprehension, that stands for "Pain In The Ass?, which I have no clue how you think that in any way talks about this recent reporting rule change in glowing terms:

"You might find it interesting, of the three other accountants I've spoken with over the past year, you are the only one who speaks of the change in such glowing terms."

And by the way, who gives a rat's ass what some other accountants said. Based on your somewhat obvious political leanings, I'd want to fact check the hell out of that comment to see if they even exist. And even if they do, did it ever occur to you that they might just be saying things they thought would be somewhat sympathetic to your point of view so as to possibly attract you as a new client? Or if they happen to be a friend/acquaintance, they agreed with you so as not to tick you off and ruin that relationship? Yes, I know this new reporting thing is going to suck for a lot of people, but instead of bitching and moaning about it, like it seems you only want to do, I was actually posting all along to try and warn others about it, and what they may want to plan to or have to do about it. Like make sure they do not ignore it if they end up getting a 1099-K in the future. I've also tried to make it a point to explain how the IRS will initially view someone getting one of these 1099-K forms as being in an actual business, unless they make sure to go ahead and properly report the results of their sales activities as only a collector/investor, in which case they wouldn't have to worry about the self-employments taxes. But you don't get or understand that, do you? And these accountants you supposedly talked with, they're probably mostly concerned with how they're going to get all this extra tax work done they they're going to be faced with next tax season. But don't worry, they can then think about all the extra money they can make off of it.

Or is this maybe the biggest thing of all that is causing your complaints about this new reporting rule change having hurt the "hobby", you just can't find the stuff you want on Ebay anymore:

"And what about eBay? For me, it was a huge source of my collecting over the past 20 years. However, over the last couple it's become a picked over carcass as seller after seller has gone underground and/or listed less. Has nobody else felt this difference? How is that good for the hobby?"

By any chance, the fact of many sellers leaving Ebay couldn't have possibly also been from other things like higher Ebay fees, more restrictions on sellers, sellers like PWCC being booted off, the installation of their Authentication Program, the commencement by others of "Vaults" (which has since caused Ebay to start a Vault of their own), or maybe even the start of Ebay now collecting sales tax on all Ebay transactions? But no, none of those could be factors, it us just the new tax reporting requirements rule change according to you it sounds like. Those departing Ebay sellers especially couldn't have also had anything to do with the sales tax law changes, which were allowed to take effect under a prior administration IIRC.

I could go on and on discrediting every dumb thing you've said, but why bother, it seems you never intended to listen to what anyone else had to say and try to educate you about at all. I've already posted over and over about this change in the tax reporting rule here on the forum long before this, trying to warn, help out, and answer questions of those who ask them, even when I've already been asked and responded to literally the same questions multiple times before. But I must say, I've never had someone try to throw politics into the mix, as you appear to be doing. And if so, take that crap elsewhere!!! And you are totally wrong in even daring to say I was being sarcastic before, I was not, and only trying to be totally honest with you, and actually trying to help to educate you. But you couldn't possibly understand that could you, because I didn't immediately agree with exactly what you think and wanted to hear? If you had taken the time to asks nicely, or gone back through old threads I and others having have chimed in on, you'd find that your questions and concerns about other issues surrounding this topic. like not always having complete records and data to report with, has been discussed before, along with possible solutions and further advice on what to possibly do. And I'd already in an earlier post suggested that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes on the profits they get from their card sales, or to not have to bother reporting any sales on their tax returns at all, there are various other ways and venues they can use and take advantage of to get around that by not having anything reported to the IRS regarding what they are doing. But anyone that elects to do that is technically a tax cheat or tax evader, or whatever you want to call them. And if someone doesn't like being called or thought of like that, tough $hit, don't cheat on your taxes then.

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