World Baseball Classic vs injuries

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Rather you are arguing that baseball players shouldn’t be playing in…baseball games.

This seems to me to be a bit of an oversimplification. Yes, he is a baseball player who was injured as a result of playing in a baseball game. But, you are overlooking that he is baseball player under contract to play baseball for a specific baseball team and he was injured playing in a game for someone other than that team. Given the salary that these guys pull down, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that they will refrain from engaging in activities/behaviors that could reasonably jeopardize their ability to perform under their contract.

To be sure, that wouldn't be, in and of itself, reason to ban participating in these types of tournaments. What tips it over the edge for me is that there is something of a moral hazard issue at play. Injured players still get paid. Teams that employ injured players likely have insurance to cover their salary losses during the injury. Who isn't covered in this scenario? The fans who ostensibly pay for all of this. Now, I get that there is a lot of second order effects that accrue to the players/teams, but at the top level, players and teams are still indemnified in a way that fans aren't.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

This seems to me to be a bit of an oversimplification. Yes, he is a baseball player who was injured as a result of playing in a baseball game. But, you are overlooking that he is baseball player under contract to play baseball for a specific baseball team and he was injured playing in a game for someone other than that team. Given the salary that these guys pull down, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that they will refrain from engaging in activities/behaviors that could reasonably jeopardize their ability to perform under their contract.

To be sure, that wouldn't be, in and of itself, reason to ban participating in these types of tournaments. What tips it over the edge for me is that there is something of a moral hazard issue at play. Injured players still get paid. Teams that employ injured players likely have insurance to cover their salary losses during the injury. Who isn't covered in this scenario? The fans who ostensibly pay for all of this. Now, I get that there is a lot of second order effects that accrue to the players/teams, but at the top level, players and teams are still indemnified in a way that fans aren't.

I don’t see moral hazard being an issue here. Moral hazard is about poorly aligned incentives. No player has any incentive to behave recklessly just because they are insured. Yup, they’ll still get paid, and the team will be covered, but the player will still suffer significant losses. The injury could affect their abilities and severely dampen their marketability long term. Time lost to injury often turns HOF careers into Hall of Very Good careers. They can also lose endorsement opportunities and a lot of other things. In short, even with insurance, players have strong incentives to avoid injury, and teams also have obvious incentives to keep their players healthy despite insurance.

Fans? Yeah, it sucks if a player on your team gets injured, but cancelling the WBC would also harm fans. Not the same set of fans of course (most fans of specific WBC teams like Puerto Rico aren’t Mets fans, and vice versa) but still, baseball fans.

Its also not true that fans aren’t indemnified, they are the stakeholder with the least at stake financially and the easiest way of protecting themselves. Fans always have the option of exit. If your team sucks due to injuries, you can just not buy tickets to see games, not buy team merch, etc. Fans have diverse lives and investments, while players and teams have much more specific, non diversified investment in the team.

What you are really complaining about is that fans suffer from disappointment that their team will not play as well as they otherwise would, but this feeling isn’t something one would normally expect to be compensated for.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

I don’t see moral hazard being an issue here. Moral hazard is about poorly aligned incentives. No player has any incentive to behave recklessly just because they are insured.

That is, literally, the definition of moral hazard.

Screenshot 2023-03-17 212500.jpg

Players who face the loss of their income by being injured in activities unrelated to their direct employment are considerably less likely to play outside their contract. I have a hard time understanding how you can think differently

Yup, they’ll still get paid, and the team will be covered, but the player will still suffer significant losses. The injury could affect their abilities and severely dampen their marketability long term. Time lost to injury often turns HOF careers into Hall of Very Good careers. They can also lose endorsement opportunities and a lot of other things. In short, even with insurance, players have strong incentives to avoid injury, and teams also have obvious incentives to keep their players healthy despite insurance.

Those sound like second order effects. I guess I was remiss in not mentioning them?

Fans? Yeah, it sucks if a player on your team gets injured, but cancelling the WBC would also harm fans. Not the same set of fans of course (most fans of specific WBC teams like Puerto Rico aren’t Mets fans, and vice versa) but still, baseball fans.

I never said anything about cancelling the WBC.

Its also not true that fans aren’t indemnified, they are the stakeholder with the least at stake financially and the easiest way of protecting themselves. Fans always have the option of exit. If your team sucks due to injuries, you can just not buy tickets to see games, not buy team merch, etc. Fans have diverse lives and investments, while players and teams have much more specific, non diversified investment in the team.

I can almost guarantee any season ticket holder or corporate sponsor that wants a refund because the season is over before it started is going to be really disappointed with the team's response.

What you are really complaining about is that fans suffer from disappointment that their team will not play as well as they otherwise would, but this feeling isn’t something one would normally expect to be compensated for.

Exactly my point. Any investment made is a sunk cost.

[mrreality68]

MLB insurance is covering his salary while he cannot play.
So Diaz gets paid, Mets payroll goes down by approx 17 mill (not counting the luxury tax), and the Mets have to do without or the GM has to try and trade for a solid closer.
It was freak accident, no one’s fault, not the fault of WBC but regardless it does suck

[ALR-bishop]

Ted— that is a wonderful card

[Snapolit1]

Altuve looks to possibly have suffered a hand injury in a WBC game tonight.

https://www.mlb.com/news/jose-altuve...seball-classic

But I guess he could have hurt his hand at spring training too, so no issue.

[Directly]

Does this mean Edwin Diaz wont have a baseball card in Topps WBC product ?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Ted— that is a wonderful card

Thank you Al. I couldn't pass that up.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

That is, literally, the definition of moral hazard.

Er, yes, you are right, I did correctly describe moral hazard. Not sure I understand the point of quoting the definition.

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Players who face the loss of their income by being injured in activities unrelated to their direct employment are considerably less likely to play outside their contract. I have a hard time understanding how you can think differently

You are proposing a model of behavior that simply ignores those second order effects. I'm saying those things are important to actually understanding the decision making of a player.

Yes, all else being equal a player who knows their income is assured would be less risk-averse that one who doesn't. But in reality all that stuff I was talking about - risk of loss of future income, desire to have a good/great career, risk of loss of numerous other financial incentives, etc - likely outweigh that. I sincerely doubt Diaz was thinking, or was subliminally influenced by the idea of "Hey, my income is insured, so screw everything I'm going to engage in risky celebrations that I wouldn't if it weren't".

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I never said anything about cancelling the WBC.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the principle you are arguing in favor of is that no player who plays for one team under contract should ever participate in any other baseball events like the WBC. This would pretty much eliminate 95% of the guys playing from the tournament and make it completely unworkable.

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I can almost guarantee any season ticket holder or corporate sponsor that wants a refund because the season is over before it started is going to be really disappointed with the team's response.

Not sure that I buy that the interests of season ticket holders and corporate sponsors are representative of "fans" in general.

[RCMcKenzie]

As long as Astros do not play in it, I like the event. I hope in the future, after this Altuve injury, the Astros advise their players to stand down and rest up for the real season.

I'd rather see the USA play Josh Reddick in RF and win 6-3, instead of boat-racing and mercy-ruling everyone 15-2.

I like Mexico tonight. I'm surprised they are not the favorites. Mexico played a much tougher bracket to get this far.

[RCMcKenzie]

It was a good game yesterday. Japan sports a nice team. I was glad when Mexico pulled Urquidy. I hope he's okay.

WBC is somewhat of a Tampa Bay-like product with all the bullpen games. I'll be watching tonight. I hope Kyle Tucker and Ryan Pressley are also watching, and not playing.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

It was a good game yesterday. Japan sports a nice team. I was glad when Mexico pulled Urquidy. I hope he's okay.

WBC is somewhat of a Tampa Bay-like product with all the bullpen games. I'll be watching tonight. I hope Kyle Tucker and Ryan Pressley are also watching, and not playing.

Japan vs US
Trout vs Ohtani

Should be interesting