Ty Cobb and the hobby

[robertsmithnocure]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I would agree, Johnson & Matty are two that come to mind that eclipse most other pitchers in the hobby.

I would add Cy Young to that list. Johnson, Mathewson and Young are in a class by themselves when it comes to pre-war pitchers.

I have always felt that Alexander, Grove and Nichols are underrated, but the hobby will never view them the same as the above three.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure

I would add Cy Young to that list. Johnson, Mathewson and Young are in a class by themselves when it comes to pre-war pitchers.

I have always felt that Alexander, Grove and Nichols are underrated, but the hobby will never view them the same as the above three.

So many times we point out how much being on a good team helps a player. For instance, switch Matty and Alex... let Alex pitch for quality teams in the Polo Grounds and Matty for Philadelphia at Baker Bowl and watch what happens to their relative numbers.

But with Walter, he already was on a weak team. That's why, to me Walter is undoubtedly the best pitcher ever, and there shouldn't be one bit of debate about it. I mean, discussions are fun but at the end of the day, the conclusion should be unanimous.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So many times we point out how much being on a good team helps a player. For instance, switch Matty and Alex... let Alex pitch for quality teams in the Polo Grounds and Matty for Philadelphia at Baker Bowl and watch what happens to their relative numbers.

But with Walter, he already was on a weak team. That's why, to me Walter is undoubtedly the best pitcher ever, and there shouldn't be one bit of debate about it. I mean, discussions are fun but at the end of the day, the conclusion should be unanimous.

100% agree Mark, imagine the Big Train as a Giant, Tiger, Cub, Pirate in that era.

[Touch'EmAll]

Love the picture Kawika posted of Cobb & Matty!

The foremost reason why he has his top tier place in the hobby is because on the field he was truly great. Best of his era and then some.

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Love the picture Kawika posted of Cobb & Matty!

The foremost reason why he has his top tier place in the hobby is because on the field he was truly great. Best of his era and then some.

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

Interesting stats from Fenway101 regarding Johnson pitching/Ruth batting.

Let’s take a look. In 107 at bats, Babe hit .280 with 8 doubles, 2 triples and 7 home runs. He walked 19 times giving Babe an on base percentage of .389, and Ole Walter punched him out 25 times. Not bad, but let’s take a closer look. Babe hit .342 lifetime but Johnson held him 62 points under his lifetime mark. In his career, his home run to at bat ratio was 1 homer in every 11.76 at bats; against Johnson he hit a homer in every 15.29 at bats. Babe whiffed 1 in every 6.43 at bats but when he faced the Big Train, he went down swinging once every 4.28 at bats. Babe’s numbers against Johnson were pretty damn good however, in essence, the Big Train reduced the Sultan of Swat to a mere mortal.

However, there is a flip side. Throughout Johnson’s career, opponents hit .222 against him. He surrendered a total of, ready for this, 97 home runs. THAT’S IT!! That translates to a home run every 227.2 batters! The on base percentage of opposing batters throughout Johnson’s career was .281. So, if you consider that Babe took him deep once every 15.29 at bats and hit him at a .280 clip and got on base 39% of the time then one could conclude that Babe reduced the great Big Train Walter Johnson to a mere mortal as well.

[abothebear]

This is not presented as an argument against others' comments. All make good points. This is just another factor to consider.

The rise of major league baseball in national prominence coincides with Cobb's career (and others' careers). But those two things also coincide with the rise of Ford Motors and the rise of the city of Detroit, where Cobb played essentially the entirety of his career. Automobiles and Detroit were the hottest things going, and Cobb was their mega-star in the hottest sport going. During Cobb's career, Detroit's population went from 250k to 1.6 million people, a 600% increase. And the city was well on its way to becoming the richest city in the world. Additionally, a great many of these new Detroit residents were immigrants or transplants from other parts of the U.S. One might argue that Cobb's serendipitous Detroit connection also provided him a human network to national and global fame. If Detroit hadn't crashed like it did, perhaps Cobb would be an even bigger name in the hobby today.

Potentially related... have you ever noticed the disproportionately high representation of Michigan folks in the hobby? Even if very few are pre-war aficionados, I'm sure they all know of Cobb and think of him as their representative old-timer.

As a youngster, I'd play hockey in the gym with my friends after school. We had a habit of "calling" who we were going to be in any sport we played. With hockey, none of us had cable or could stay up late enough to watch hockey on TV anyway. We had no idea who played in the NHL - except for Gretzky, Lemieux, and Yzerman. They were the only ones we knew, and we didn't even really know them. Cobb is like that for the average baseball fan. He has a great name, notoriety, memorable stat accomplishments, and played for a classic franchise. In a pick-up game where you'd be restricted to "calling" pre-war players only, I bet you'd get Cobb, Ruth, maybe Gehrig, DiMaggio because of the song, maybe Cy Young because of the award, possibly Honus Wagner because of the card (not because people knew if he was a great player or not), and that's about it. Baseball fans and hobbiest outside of pre-war, if they dip their toes or dive into it, this is what they start with. At least that was my experience.

This is, I think, the second ever pre-war card I was able to acquire, I hope it is Cobb, because that is who I keep saying it is...


.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by abothebear

I hope it is Cobb, because that is who I keep saying it is...


.

It must be. No infielder dared get near him sliding in.

[MantleMarisFordBerra]

Originally Posted by abothebear

DiMaggio because of the song

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For what's it's worth SoundGarden has a song called Ty Cobb:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_or_Gf7vqqo

Language warning

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I've posted about this before, always amazing when I think about it, but Ruth defeated Walter Johnson 5 out of 6 of their head-to-head matchups.

Interesting...I wonder how Walter Johnson did batting against Babe Ruth? Johnson was a pretty decent hitter for a pitcher.

Brian