Hey, pennant guys

[Domer05]

As Mark noted, Epstein Novelty Co. also produced a series featuring a punter kicking a football across the length of the pennant. I'm a little hesitant to call it a "series" because there are slight variations in these designs; but, overall, the concept is the same; and, many bear Epstein's label.

Let's name this the "the kicking punter" series

[bocca001]

The only way that I attempt to help Kyle is by filling up his inbox with email listings every time I see a pennant with a label or some kind of pennant brochure. But I never saw the Columbia pennant. That's all Kyle. I do remember sending him a pic of an Epstein label from a Texas A&M pennant a few years ago, but never thought it would be the maker of these series. So Epstein did make more generic college pennants too.

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

The newer version of the kicker pennant has additional details in the background. I know that these exist for some NFL teams. I think Fballguy has a pic of a Raiders pennant with this image on his website. Santa Clara stopped playing major football in 1952, so the pennant is likely 1952 or earlier. I suppose the two kicker pennants could have been made by different companies, with the newer being a copy.

You're spot on for the time frame of the lower kicker pennant. Pretty easy to differentiate the ones from the 1940s from the ones from the 1960s, such as the Raiders you mention. The 1940s version have little blob flags and not much detail to the stadium. Also, many of the teams you find are defunct and existed for a very short time in the 40s or early 50s. Whereas the 60s version has proper flags and fans in the stands (Rams pennant below).

[thetahat]

I believe these three to be from the same company, one that we have yet to identify.

[ooo-ribay]

I know this has been mentioned before….but we gotta do a pennant book!

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky’s pinback book. For me, it’s the gold standard. I’m very much a “pin guy,” too, and Paul’s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven’t contributed all that much to the pennant research…but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread.

I highly value all of you….my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

I know this has been mentioned before….but we gotta do a pennant book!

I’m sure many of you are familiar with Paul Muchinsky’s pinback book. For me, it’s the gold standard. I’m very much a “pin guy,” too, and Paul’s book is a treasure. He told me a) it was a pain in the ass to produce and b) it was a money loser. But, man, the information you guys have come up with is unbelievable. I wish Paul was still around so I could pick his brain on the book publishing process. I haven’t contributed all that much to the pennant research…but I am, and always will be, the OP of this here, high quality thread.

I highly value all of you….my obsessive pennant (gonfalon) brothers!

Agreed. I started a sort of catalog of the info in this thread. You can get is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nAV...usp=share_link

It's certainly not a book but a lot of the info is there.

I now have 1,614 pennants (and variations) detailed. I've started to add links to known auctions/sales too.

And here's a few new arrivals this week The Red Sox is a 1949 phantom AL Champions pennant. Any ideas about who made it?

[thetahat]

Cool pennants, Gary, especially the Colts. See post 7205 above for pennants similar to the Red Sox.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Kyle- I always thought that the left footed kicker pennants (below) were made by the same company as the runner pennant (now identified as Epstein). But I think you have attributed this style to Trench. I have posted two examples below, with one clearly being older than the other. The older one seems very similar to the Epstein runner pennants with respect to materials and feel. Just wondering how/why you have associated the left footed kicker design with Trench. It's probably too weird for Epstein to have two different kicker versions (given how steadfastly they stuck to the runner and slider designs).

You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

All three series involved 26" long, 3/4 size pennants. More importantly, all were made by the same company. Further, the "insert ballpark name" series represented a really cutting edge pennant for its day. Look at how many colors this maker used! Four colors? Two pairs of tassels? Who else was making pennants that nice by 1950? Who else (save maybe Epstein) had this big of market share by 1950? That distinctive serif letter font--who else relied on that as heavily as Trench throughout the 1940s and 50s?

There really isn't anyone else ... is there?

Still not convinced? Look at these two Eagles pennants (courtesy of fballguy's / feltfootball.com).... There's your left footed punter; and, underneath him there's a companion pennant from the same maker bearing yet another graphic associated with Trench.

Look, it may not be proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but, for me, all signs point to Buffalo, NY on this one. Which means, all three of the pennants Greg identified in post #7205, with that kooky letter font, are also, in my opinion, by Trench.

This shouldn't surprise us: they were a really big, successful company.

[bocca001]

Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Well, you've convinced me.

Any additional thoughts about AMCO Emblem as the maker of the football runner pennants? Given their ad and the painted pennants "division" of their business?

Marc: AMCO's legal/corporate name was "AMCO Athletic Apparel Corp." as of 1947. I'm still researching them, but I can tell you that pennants were only a portion of their business. They specialized in apparel, as their name suggests, namely baseball and football uniforms. Hence the "painted pennant division" verbiage referenced on their 1938 ad.

They must've put that in there because they wanted their customers to know they made more than uniforms?

[thetahat]

1954 Indians … top three are undeniably Trench. (They made 3-4 more designs too.)

The fourth? Seems to me same maker as the “insert stadium” 1950 Phillies Whiz Kids and Browns below it; identical block letter font, tassels, etc.They also are distinguished by a rough screen print, that Domer identified as a product of the screen itself. I have no obvious Trenches that look/feel like this but all of mine with the same font have it.

[thetahat]

These appear to be Epstein football pennants sans runner

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

You're right: I do believe the "left footed punter" artwork to be associated with Trench. Similarly, I attribute the "moon-lit batter" artwork to be by Trench. There may be no consensus among this thread as to who made them; but, they were both 26" long and undoubtedly by the same maker, as the two Brooklyn Dodger pennants below illustrate....

Around the same time that these two graphics/series were being produced, late 1940s/early 1950s, a third series surfaced. It too consisted largely of 26" long pennants. It was the "insert ballpark name" series, for lack of a better name. It too was by the same maker, as these New York Yankees pennants illustrate....

Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I’ve asked, but I’ll ask again….do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the “moon-lit batter”?

[thetahat]

Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.

I dunno, those top two look similar to me.... Same serif letter font used. Both have tassels. Both are polychromatic. Obviously, they're different styles/sizes, but there's nothing inconsistent about them. (I'm not convinced that stitching characteristics are a reliable indicator of a pennant's origin.)

I think by 1950 the "insert ballpark name" series was rather tired and being phased out. It had enjoyed a good run. Scroll pennants were the new fad, and Trench (along with others) went all-in on them. Same with full size pennants. These two 1950 pennants simply illustrate that transition point, for me.

Why wouldn't Trench (or whoever you think made these) make more than one NL champs pennant for a team? This enabled them to offer both a 3/4 and a full size pennant, presumably at different prices. That makes perfect business sense to me.

Regarding materials used, we also know that Trench was an innovative company, and they certainly experimented with new production techniques and materials throughout the 1950s. Sometimes they used 100% wool felt; mostly they used a wool/rayon blend; and they even tried that flannel-like cloth material for a time, too. So, for me, if the materials truly differed, this may explain why.

I agree that the bottom one is by Trench. The third one, however, I believe is by AMCO. (I also believe that AMCO is the maker of the double-wide scroll pennant you referenced. I'll have more to say about that later on Pennant Fever when I cover them.)

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Counter argument:

If the “insert ballpark name” pennant was made by Trench, then Trench made the top two pennants pictured below in the same year for the same team. They share nothing in common. Not the texture of the felt, the spine, the stitch, the graphics, etc. all very different. The middle two share almost everything in common and seem obvious to be from the same company. ‘51 Cinderella Boys Giants is also a match and has a very different scroll graphic than what Trench uses. Bottom is Trench.

All are full-size.

FWIW, I love that bottom St. Louis Browns pennant!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Very interesting how you showed the progression and interchange of fonts and graphics. I know I’ve asked, but I’ll ask again….do you think this is Trench as well or did someone steal the “moon-lit batter”?

Probably?? That's a tough one. Sure, it's the same batter artwork; but super-imposed on a rendering of Candlestick? And, those colors?? Doesn't look like anything else Trench did around 1962 but ... who knows?

1962 was the the year Tom Storm joined his father at Trench and assumed a role in running the company. He told me he was all about trying new production methods aimed at lowering their costs ... some that worked ... others that failed.

If Trench made this, it could have been one of their little experiments....

...Or, the artwork was just stolen by a rival maker and inserted into a new design?