Attention S74 Silk Collectors

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Vintagecatcher

Noticed some "Premium Envelopes" recently on eBay. Although none of the envelopes were stamped "Baseball Series," there was one that had an Actress Series Stamp.

S74 collector's have always speculated on how the S74 silks were packaged and how they reached the consumer. Were they packaged with the product or not?

Perhaps this envelope sheds some light on the topic.

If the silks were sent via these "Premium Envelopes" rather than with the product, that would make a lot of sense, and could explain why many silks still can be found in a prestine state.

Another question that longtime collector's have inquired about is why do many of the silks have a fold up the middle. I noticed that all of the "Premium Envelopes" listed on eBay, have a fold up the middle of the envelopes!

Any thoughts?

Patrick

Don't believe the really serious S74 silk collectors have always, or really ever, speculated on how the silks were packaged and delivered to the public. Please review the Red Sun ad in the middle of the HOME page of the following link closely, especially the fine print part where it states emphatically that the baseball player and actress photos were included in packs of Red Sun cigarettes. If you've ever seen the S74-1 white silks with Red Sun backs, they are exactly the same shape and condition as the ad-backed S74-1 white version silks for the other three brands they were also originally sold and distributed with, Old Mill, Turkey Red, and the uber-rare Helmar. It seems pretty clear from all the silks I've ever come across and handled that they were most likely all packaged and distributed in the exact same manner as well then, by being placed in cigarette packs. And the folds were from the silks being folded in half before placing then in the packs. That has not been a long-time question still unanswered for serious S74 silk collectors either. As a serious S74 silk collector myself, not sure where you're getting these questions you're supposedly saying are still being asked on our behalf.

http://www.s74silk.com/

As for the envelope you posted an image of, did you not notice that it clearly states the envelope contained five satin ribbons? Back in that day, ribbons were at times also used and distributed with tobacco products, but there was never any doubt or confusion as to the ribbons and these silk photos being two entirely different items. In fact, if you go back to the attached link, and click over to the MANUFACTURING page, you'll find a reference to, and examples of, what were known as ribbons. I don't believe these are anywhere close to, nor would ever be mistaken for, S74 silks.

And where do you get off with the comment about how many silks can still be found in a prestine state. (Did you mean pristine?) Not many S74 silks are still in what most serious silk collectors would ever consider as their pristine state. Between fraying, folds, staining, fading, and on and on, most silks exhibit obvious wear, handling and aging. Don't forget, unlike cards, these S74 silks were actually meant to be handled and used to make pillows, covers and other items. So I'm not sure where you definition of pristine is coming from.

And lastly, at the bottom of the envelope you posted the image of, it notes it is for/from the Liggett & Myers Tobacco Co., and just to the right of the company name, it appears to show/reference the company or product was from or had something to do with what appears to be St. Louis, which I'm thinking was possibly referring to St. Louis, Missouri then. The back end of the city was ripped off, but I'm not really familiar with any other cities named St. Louis, so guessing we're talking Missouri after all. The Ligget & Meyers Tobacco Co. still survives today as the Liggett Group, the fourth largest tobacco company in the U.S., and is currently headquartered out of Durham, NC I believe. And though eventually acquired by the American Tobacco Co. monopoly back in 1899, prior to that, Ligget & Meyers actually started out as a small snuff mill originally owned and operated by John Edmund Liggett's grandfather, Christopher Foulks, in the very early 1800's in New Egypt, NJ. Foulks later moved the business around 1822 to Belleville, Illinois, and then in 1833 (Surprise, surprise!) he moved it again to St. Louis, Missouri. His grandson, John Edmund Liggett, then joined him in the business sometime in the mid 1840's. In 1869, the company created the first ever blended cigarettes (Turkish and Virginia tobaccos), and in 1873 went into a partnership with George Smith Meyers, also from Missouri, and formally incorporated the Liggett & Meyers Tobacco Co. In 1876 the company introduced L&M Plug Chewing Tobacco, and by 1885 became the world's largest manufacturer of plug chewing tobacco. And then as I noted earlier, they were swallowed up by the ATC in 1899.

Now because of the original use of silk/satin ribbons with tobacco products, like cigars, from in the 1800's, I'm going to guess that maybe, just maybe, that envelope you're showing, and the clear reference it has to containing satin ribbons, might possibly refer to cigar ribbons, or even smaller cigarette ribbons, that did come into play as advertisements for tobacco products as early as 1858, and really took off in the 1870s. So S74 silks don't really seem to fit the possibility of having been distributed in such envelopes.

Also, though Liggett & Meyers did eventually become part of the ATC conglomerate that produced the S74 silks, I don't think I've ever heard or seen any reference or info indicating that any of the four different brands had anything to do with Liggett & Meyers when the silks were being distributed. Red Sun I believe was distributed in the deep South, primarily out of/around New Orleans if memory serves. Don't believe Ligget & Meyers ever had any operations in that part of the country so, Red Sun probably not part of L&M. Helmar was created in 1907 and handled by a different ATC subsidiary, S. Anargyros. So once again, not Ligget & Meyers. Old Mill was a brand originally created by the ATC/Duke Trust in 1890, long before Ligget & Meyers was acquired and even had anything to do with the ATC. Oddly enough, the Old Mill brand was awarded to L&M, but not till AFTER the ATC was forced to break up in 1911, and all the T206, T205, S74, and other then current baseball advertising issues ceased production. So also not L&M associated during S74 silk production. And finally, the Turkey Red cigarettes brand is one I couldn't really find any historical info on. Not sure why, but couldn't find anything specifically tying Turkey Red to Liggett & Meyers either. Meanwhile, I did find info and links of L&M to the Chesterfield, Fatima, and Piedmont cigarette brands, as well as the aforementioned Old Mill brand, but only after they split up the ATC in 1911 and had ceased distribution of the S74 silks.

So again, I'm fairly confident that Ligget & Meyers didn't really have anything to do with the S74 silks, and that envelope you posted an image of has nothing whatsoever to do with another or alternative distribution technique/method for the S74 silks either.

https://archives.lib.duke.edu/catalog/liggettmyers