Thoughts on this 1925 Gehrig

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Personally, I think the points made above are valid. However, I believe Gehrig cards were overpriced and are now coming back to earth. In my mind Gehrig was only very slightly better than Foxx. There is no reason other than his untimely death that there should be such a large price discrepancy between their cards.

Jay - Lou Gehrig is the third greatest hitter in baseball history behind Williams & Ruth, and that counts for an awful lot. Regarding the Foxx comparison, Gehrig’s lifetime batting average is 15 points higher than Foxx (.340 vs. .325) as well as his OPS being 0.41 higher (1.076 vs. 1.035). Over 16/17 years, that’s a significant advantage. Their lifetime homers & RBIs are extremely close). Add in his unfathomable 2,130 consecutive game streak, 6 world championships (not counting 1939), and the fact his career was suddenly cut short while he was still performing at a world class level (he would have hit over 600 homers and knocked in 2,400+ runs), and Gehrig easily gets the nod. Interestingly enough, most people fail to realize that in 1938 (having just turned 35 on 6/13/38), Gehrig was on his way to another one of his incredible campaigns. In early to mid-August, he inexplicably hit a wall, slumping badly including the Fall Classic where he managed only 4 meager singles. While still managing to hit 29 dingers and bat in 114 runs, he would have belted approx. 40 homers and posted 140+ RBIs. No one knew the ill effects of ALS was the reason for his awful final 2-month slump, and the rest is history. Gehrig bests Foxx and is right on the heels of Williams & Ruth. I do believe Foxx is one of the 3 greatest right-handed hitters along with Hornsby & Aaron (Mays & Pujols get honorable mention). Like Hornsby, Double X’s cards are significantly undervalued.

[FrankWakefield]

Buy the card, not the player?

Let's get back to that card. Are you able to hit that card with a black light?

I understand that it's in a holder, professionally graded. All of those corners look uniformly rounded. That uniformity is a bit of a flag for me. I'd want to illuminate it with uv light and see if it fluoresces.

So that is foremost among my "thoughts about that 1925 Gehrig"

[oldjudge]

Joe—I think the comparison is a lot closer than you think. Foxx had 133 more ABs for his career than Gehrig but hit 41 more HRs. He won three MVPs vs Gehrig’s two, he was a better fielder. Gehrig had a slightly higher batting average and more RBI’s, but he played for a lot better team. I agree Gehrig was better but it was pretty close. If Foxx was a Yankee and Gehrig was an Athletic the comparison would probably flip in Fox’s favor.
I was reading a list that was put together in 1994 of the greatest hitters of all time. Here it is:

10. Willie Mays
9. Hank Aaron
8. Joe Jackson
7. Stan Musial
6. Ty Cobb
5. Joe DiMaggio
4. Rogers Hornsby
3. Jimmie Foxx
2. Lou Gehrig
1. Babe Ruth

Oh, there is a reason Williams is not on the list—he put it together.

[Exhibitman]

Setting aside the PEDs the list of the ten most productive hitters in history is incomplete without Barry Bonds.

162.8 WAR (4th all time; 1st all time for position players)
6th all time on base %
8th all time slugging %
5th all time OPS
3rd runs scored
5th total bases
1st walks
1st home runs

But I digress...

The Gehrig is the perfect storm of adverse issues.

--The initial price is a PWCC price so who knows if it is legit
--The card is grossly overgraded. The card corners look to me like they were rounded intentionally. The card should have gotten an A. Buyers with $100K to spend aren't going to be fooled by an overgrade of this magnitude.
--There was a reserve. I agree that reserves depress bidding.

The card Scott posted is typical of my experience with SGC grading Exhibit cards: they knock the snot out of them. Between the full bleed image and the size, a 5 on a prewar Exhibit is a very strong grade. At the 2006 National I purchased a small grouo of really nice fresh-to-the-hobby 1928s and i think the best grade I got out of the lot was a 5.5.

[robertsmithnocure]

Also Foxx benefited greatly by playing in his home ballparks while Gehrig was actually better on the road.

Gehrig had a lifetime road batting average of .351 and an OPS of 1.103 while Foxx batted .306 with an OPS of .966. That is a huge difference.

IMHO, Gehrig was a much better player.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Setting aside the PEDs the list of the ten most productive hitters in history is incomplete without Barry Bonds.

162.8 WAR (4th all time; 1st all time for position players)
6th all time on base %
8th all time slugging %
5th all time OPS
3rd runs scored
5th total bases
1st walks
1st home runs

But I digress...

The Gehrig is the perfect storm of adverse issues.

--The initial price is a PWCC price so who knows if it is legit
--The card is grossly overgraded. The card corners look to me like they were rounded intentionally. The card should have gotten an A. Buyers with $100K to spend aren't going to be fooled by an overgrade of this magnitude.
--There was a reserve. I agree that reserves depress bidding.

The card Scott posted is typical of my experience with SGC grading Exhibit cards: they knock the snot out of them. Between the full bleed image and the size, a 5 on a prewar Exhibit is a very strong grade. At the 2006 National I purchased a small grouo of really nice fresh-to-the-hobby 1928s and i think the best grade I got out of the lot was a 5.5.

Unfortunately, you cannot set aside PEDs. Like Clemens when he went to Toronto, Bonds career took off in staggering proportions when he started taking PEDs. Cheating, and there’s no way around it. While both Clemens & Bonds were already future HOFers before PEDs, their extraordinary lifetime numbers are seriously tainted by steroids. For that reason alone, both of them cannot be placed in the top 10 as a pitcher & hitter.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Unfortunately, you cannot set aside PEDs. Like Clemens when he went to Toronto, Bonds career took off in staggering proportions when he started taking PEDs. Cheating, and there’s no way around it. While both Clemens & Bonds were already future HOFers before PEDs, their extraordinary lifetime numbers are seriously tainted by steroids. For that reason alone, both of them cannot be placed in the top 10 as a pitcher & hitter.

+1 agree

[FrankWakefield]

+1 for Adam, seeing that the corners of the card are suspect. And while I have sometimes bid on PWCC stuff, I share and concur with his concern.

That is responsive to what I thought the initial post was about.



But so many want to contrast Gehrig with Foxx, or discuss PEDs, or both. So on PEDs... I see a distinction between using something that isn't prohibited with something that is prohibited. Seems for some folks the line blurs where the substance initially isn't banned, but later on it is. My possibly faulty recollection was that what McGuire and Sosa (for example) used were not banned at the time of use, and that use stopped slightly before or contemporaneously with prohibition. That wouldn't be true for Clemmons and A-Rod (again, for example), because what they were using was banned prior to and during use.

[rhettyeakley]

Massively overgraded! That is a 1.5 at best, one of the worst looking 3’s you will ever see!

[Popcorn]

I went the poor man’s rout and picked up a 27’ exhibit and 25’ w590. Would love to know if the w590 was actually printed in 25’

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Popcorn

I went the poor man’s rout and picked up a 27’ exhibit and 25’ w590. Would love to know if the w590 was actually printed in 25’

I recently read two good threads on here about the W590 issue. I think even the guys who seemed to have some pretty good theories about the issue were not 100% convinced that the Gehrig could be pinned down as only a 1925 printing.

[MACollector]

Seems like the rookie prices are alive and well for nice looking ones! His PSA 3.5 sold for $206k this week at Goldin. Night and day nicer looking than the original 3 that started this thread.

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by MACollector

Seems like the rookie prices are alive and well for nice looking ones! His PSA 3.5 sold for $206k this week at Goldin. Night and day nicer looking than the original 3 that started this thread.

Great looking card and under valued where someone got a great deal. Some folks just don’t give Gehrig or Exibits much love. I am not one of those people.

[ricktmd]

A somewhat overlooked mistake here is the " new holder" . If it were in an old PSA holder getting it in a current PSA holder definitely adds value. Not the case with SGC and for sure not in this situation. It looks like a somewhat typical, older overgraded SGC card. For sure SGC and PSA are grading much tougher than they use to. While I also agree demand has softened, a new holder is a good stategy before auctioning a PSA card but probably not with SGC

[rjackson44]

Love. Mine