Current HOF election results

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by tod41

Scott Rolen was a high end complimentary player and not a dominant player in his era. David Wright was an all around better player than Rolen and likewise does not belong in hall of fame. That said, with Rolen in, Wright might get there despite his career being cut short.

Wright was a 7x All Star, 2x GG winner and two time SS winner.

Rolen was a ROY, 7x All Star, 8x GG winner and one time SS Winner

Peak WAR favors Rolen as well.

As hitters their 162 game averages are almost identical (eliminating the injury argument) and Rolen by the metrics, and also by the eye test apparently, was a better fielder by a decent margin.

[tod41]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Wright was a 7x All Star, 2x GG winner and two time SS winner.

Rolen was a ROY, 7x All Star, 8x GG winner and one time SS Winner

Peak WAR favors Rolen as well.

As hitters their 162 game averages are almost identical (eliminating the injury argument) and Rolen by the metrics, and also by the eye test apparently, was a better fielder by a decent margin.

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by tod41

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Yeah, with 450+ fewer games than Rolen, and almost 1,650 fewer plate appearances, it's just too short a resume despite some really impressive peak numbers.

Still a very good player, though. We have to remember that NOT being in the 1% or 2% of players who make the Hall of Fame isn't a slight.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I think Wright will end up like Mattingly and most voters will think his career was too short even though his peak was very high. It just wasn't long enough because of injuries.

Except Peak Wright was nowhere near as good as Peak Mattingly, and I'm ambivalent about Mattingly getting in.

[1952boyntoncollector]

I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I wonder if they make HOF inductees learn some history before being enshrined...like not knowing half the people that played your position in the HOF already would look better if they took the time to learn that info for example for the sense of history

Often electees will tour the Hall of Fame before induction. Not sure there's a history lesson per say, but I'm sure they learn something!

[FrankWakefield]

The first Cardinal I saw playing 3rd base was Ken Boyer. As a young kid I remember reading Guardian of the Hot Corner. Boyer was on the cover, in color... I was maybe 10 years old and had no idea what the Hot Corner was, but I knew Boyer played 3rd base. I still have that book. Somewhere. My point is that I've seen a bunch of people play 3rd base for the Cardinals. 60 years of Cardinal third basemen. And I remember them. I fondly remember Ken Reitz, who'd be hitting .340 in May (until the annual nose dive to .270 come summer), fielding everything in sight, and throwing ropes to first base. I liked Terry Pendleton, Ken Oberkfel, Joe Torre... I liked Todd Ziele at third, and Richie Allen did more than swing a bat, he could field and throw that long toss across the diamond. At present, the Cardinals have about the best third baseman in the game, Nolan Arenado.

Rolen was a good Cardinal the moment he spoke after the trade that landed him in St. Louis. My recollection was that he grew up in or near Evansville, IN, that's in the southern part of Indiana, across the Ohio River is Kentucky. I'd drive through Evansville on the way to St. Louis, if it was by car. Scott Rolen, moist eyed, declared that as a kid, he grew up a Cardinals fan; he dreamed of playing for the Cardinals when he grew up.

As a Cardinal, Rolen motivated his team-mates. He was a smart, solid ballplayer. He was dependable in the postseason for the Cardinals. He was a hitter who could dependably drive in runs and advance runners.

I'm ok with his election and pending induction. It's not undeserved. I recognize that Todd Helton seems deserving, too. I hope he gets in. Still, if I could sway the electorate, educate them, I'd urge them to vote in Ed Reulbach.

David Wright was a good 3rd baseman. If you look at how a player was for a career, Rolen was the better of the two. If you don't think so, look at all the numbers. Rolen hit a bit better, with fewer strikeouts. Rolen's last two seasons in Cincy hurt his averages a bit.

Mike Schmidt could crush a baseball. He walked a lot, not from a good eye, but from pitchers getting to the next batter. Schmidt struck out often. And he was a good fielder. But his batting average wasn't stellar. I don't deem him a great HOF third baseman. (I'm thinking of Joe Torre's batting title as a Cardinal third baseman at the moment, smiling.) George Kell was a great HOF third baseman. So was Brooks Robinson, and Pie Traynor. As was Boggs, Brett, and Santo. And I'll add Eddie Mathews, Chipper Jones, and even John McGraw.

David Wright? Come on now...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by tod41

Personal attacks don't win arguments. Anyway:

Top 10 MVP Finishes - Wright 4 - Rolen 1

OPS Plus - Wright 133 - Rolen 122

Seasons with OPS Plus 140 or above - Wright 5 - Rolen 1

Seasons 30/30 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

Seasons 20/20 - Wright 1 - Rolen 0

It was supposed to be silly, not an attack

[molenick]

I posted a longer version of this on 7/8/2021 in a thread about neglected HOFers....it was a list of non-steroid/HGH players at each position who had the highest percentage of votes in a given year but had not been elected (at the time). Four of these players (Hodges, Rolen, Minoso, Oliva) are now in. I have not updated it based on elections since then, but based on this year, it looks like Helton will take over at first, Sheffield in right, and Wagner, Jones, and Kent will have higher percentages. There are other changes as well (like a new left fielder)...I will try and update it fully if I get a chance.

Originally Posted by molenick

Here's another "team" for your consideration. These are the (non-steroid/HGH) players at each position who got the highest percentage of votes in a given year but who are not in the Hall (the number is their single highest %). This was based on looking at roughly the top 100 players at each position and clicking on the ones I thought were good candidates for the list, so I may have missed someone.

Dick Allen would be ahead at 1b or 3b depending on what you consider him. He had more games at 1b but had more WAR at 3b (at least that's how I interpret Baseball Reference ranking him under 3b).

C Elston Howard 20.7
1b Gil Hodges 63.4
2b Jeff Kent 32.4
ss Omar Vizquel 52.6 (Dahlen 62.5 VC)
3b Scott Rolen 52.9
lf Minnie Minoso 21.1 (56.3 VC)
cf Andruw Jones 33.9
rf Tony Oliva 47.3 (68.8 VC)
sp Curt Schilling 71.1
rp Billy Wagner 46.4
1b/3b Dick Allen 68.8 VC