SGC - say it aint so

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, a couple of corrections for you.

1) PSA is the only company I'm aware of that still has a guarantee in force. So SGC would do nothing for you, or at least is not obligated to by any current policy. BGS does not have one either, and I haven't heard of any of the newer companies (CSG, FCG, TAG, etc) having one. Edited to add: There have been a couple of lawsuits against both companies anyways, because they don't have any type of guarantee, but people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to their incompetence. I believe SGC was shamed into refunding their auto authentications on the T-206s because of backlash against the company, then folded their autograph authentication arm for a while. They are now certifying autos, but not sure if that is just pack-inserted cards that have been pre-certified by the card companies.

2) PSA telling buyers to go back to the submitters referred specifically to trimmed cards, not ones they misgraded accidentally (not seeing a pinhole, writing, crease, etc), because their TOS for submitters originally was to sign a form stating that the cards in the submission were all unaltered, to their own knowledge. So PSA was trusting that submitters be honest, because they know they're incompetent to generally detect alterations. But I was also the one (or at least one of them) to point this clause out to them, and recommended that they force PWCC to take all the returns rather than pay out on all the guarantees directly.

Hey John,

Thank you very much for the info. I myself do not deal with any TPG (Only did once and that was to merely get some authentication). Was not aware of various things you mentioned, but very glad to learn from someone with much more experience. Good to know.

My main point regarding TPGs having bogus guarantees is still applicable though, especially when they apparently have no guarantees at all. In fact, my point should be even more well taken. If they do not back up and stand behind what they do, and apparently have little or no liability for mistakes, errors and such, their service is pretty much, in truth, worthless. You or I could start up a TPG of our own and be just as reliable (probably better) than the major TPGs out there. Unfortunately, they and other parties/players that run and control our hobby industry already have too much money, exposure, backing, and control, along with the support of others in the industry that also make money off their services, and enrich themselves on the overall gullibility of many in the hobby, to the point that they are too well ensconced for us to expect any major changes and improvements any time soon. Sad, but true.

I've often said the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby. You can still have TPGs and such, but they don't set the rules, decide what the grading standards are according to what they want, change them as they see fit, fail miserably to stand behind what they do, along with exhibiting absolutely no desire or intent to ever be transparent and truly honest with no obvious conflicts-of-interest and bias, and actually provide something other than just profits for themselves.

Thanks again John for correcting me, and/or at least making some of what I was saying more accurate for others.

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/csg-guarantee/

Having never dealt directly with CSG, or hearing/seeing any stories or news regarding their guarantee or issues being had with it, I can't speak to their guarantee and how they apply it, or how well they may live up to and honor it. I can only sincerely hope that they do live up to it, and provide something the hobby community apparently seems to not always be getting elsewhere.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

...the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby...

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

[the-illini]

It could be just me, but the photo on the rebacked card looks a little more grainy than most OJ cards I have seen

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

Not talking about regulating the hobby for collectors at all. Talking about regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors, that make money off all of us and try to tell us how the hobby should be. I imagine you do not care for graded cards that are incorrectly and inconsistently graded, or altered and doctored cards easily getting into slabs and no one seeming to stop doing business with those known to be behind that, interacting and doing business with dealers/consignees/AHs and such that are behind or support shill bidding, make false claims, push fake or altered items, and on and on and on. The group I'd like to see having the control and oversight would be made up of the actual collectors, so they would decide what the grading standards should be, who the members accept to do business with within the hobby community, and actually fulfill what the collectors want and desire, not the other way around.

Won't happen though because too many collectors themselves have profited off the actions of players in the industry, and wouldn't want to risk what they have tied up in their collections. If such a hobby group finally came to be, say a particular TPG refused to abide by the hobby organization's rules and such, and therefore were no longer recognized by the hobby. And if the hobby organization's members stayed united and quit doing business with that TPG and recognizing and trading in their slabs, everyone with cards in that TPG's slabs would likely see a sudden and tremendous drop in prices for their cards. Suddenly, all the hobby members with a major collection in that TPG's slabs would potentially be taking a big hit value/income wise, which would likely cause them to have serious second thoughts about having joined and following the hobby organization to begin with.

And the bad players would probably go on doing business on their own anyway, followed by those that don't know better, or couldn't care less, and either never joined the hobby organization as members to begin with, or dropped out of it after the fact. As long as they can continue to make some money and get what they want, and they don't really care much for ethics and integrity. Just like some not so well-liked players in the industry today seem to be doing well on their own, despite many people in the hobby no longer doing business with them.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

Not talking about regulating the hobby for collectors at all. Talking about regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors, that make money off all of us and try to tell us how the hobby should be. I imagine you do not care for graded cards that are incorrectly and inconsistently graded, or altered and doctored cards easily getting into slabs and no one seeming to stop doing business with those known to be behind that, interacting and doing business with dealers/consignees/AHs and such that are behind or support shill bidding, make false claims, push fake or altered items, and on and on and on. The group I'd like to see having the control and oversight would be made up of the actual collectors, so they would decide what the grading standards should be, who the members accept to do business with within the hobby community, and actually fulfill what the collectors want and desire, not the other way around.

Won't happen though because too many collectors themselves have profited off the actions of players in the industry, and wouldn't want to risk what they have tied up in their collections. If such a hobby group finally came to be, say a particular TPG refused to abide by the hobby organization's rules and such, and therefore were no longer recognized by the hobby. And if the hobby organization's members stayed united and quit doing business with that TPG and recognizing and trading in their slabs, everyone with cards in that TPG's slabs would likely see a sudden and tremendous drop in prices for their cards. Suddenly, all the hobby members with a major collection in that TPG's slabs would potentially be taking a big hit value/income wise, which would likely cause them to have serious second thoughts about having joined and following the hobby organization to begin with.

And the bad players would probably go on doing business on their own anyway, followed by those that don't know better, or couldn't care less, and either never joined the hobby organization as members to begin with, or dropped out of it after the fact. As long as they can continue to make some money and get what they want, and they don't really care much for ethics and integrity. Just like some not so well-liked players in the industry today seem to be doing well on their own, despite many people in the hobby no longer doing business with them.

You're preaching to the choir, Reverend. However...

Again, I think many people would resist any form of regulation, even "regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors."

There are those who would say eBay, PayPal, and other platforms provide a service to the hobby. There are also those who would consider it a form of regulation to lower the 1099 threshold.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

You're preaching to the choir, Reverend. However...

Again, I think many people would resist any form of regulation, even "regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors."

There are those who would say eBay, PayPal, and other platforms provide a service to the hobby. There are also those who would consider it a form of regulation to lower the 1099 threshold.

I know, and agree Eric. The ones that would most be against any hobby regulations though, are most likely the same ones profiting off there not being any such regulations. And I can only imagine how much they would try to preach at, influence, or otherwise turn anyone they deal with or come in contact with through the hobby, against the idea of regulations as well. Self-preservation of one's self-interests can be a very motivating factor.

But others may be misunderstanding and overextending what I mean by "regulating the hobby". Regulations and rules for tax purposes are NOT at all what I'm talking about or proposing we may need more of. I'm only referring to those that regulate things that are an actually, integral part of the hobby itself, like card grading, TPGs, dealers, consignees, AHs, and such, that provide services to the people in the hobby community, to better insure they provide honest, accurate, unbiased, consistent, and free-of-conflict services and work to those in the hobby community. But though always hoping to be optimistic, am also a realist, and I doubt the things I'd like to see come true will happen anytime soon. LOL

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know, and agree Eric. The ones that would most be against any hobby regulations though, are most likely the same ones profiting off there not being any such regulations. And I can only imagine how much they would try to preach at, influence, or otherwise turn anyone they deal with or come in contact with through the hobby, against the idea of regulations as well. Self-preservation of one's self-interests can be a very motivating factor.

But others may be misunderstanding and overextending what I mean by "regulating the hobby". Regulations and rules for tax purposes are NOT at all what I'm talking about or proposing we may need more of. I'm only referring to those that regulate things that are an actually, integral part of the hobby itself, like card grading, TPGs, dealers, consignees, AHs, and such, that provide services to the people in the hobby community, to better insure they provide honest, accurate, unbiased, consistent, and free-of-conflict services and work to those in the hobby community. But though always hoping to be optimistic, am also a realist, and I doubt the things I'd like to see come true will happen anytime soon. LOL

We're on the same page. Please take my response to your post as a jab at the TPGs; it's not directed at you:


Step 1: get the grading companies to unilaterally agree NOT to slab altered cards without disclosing the alteration(s) discovered.

Step 2: buy lots of firewood, 'cause hell just froze over.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

We're on the same page. Please take my response to your post as a jab at the TPGs; it's not directed at you:


Step 1: get the grading companies to unilaterally agree NOT to slab altered cards without disclosing the alteration(s) discovered.

Step 2: buy lots of firewood, 'cause hell just froze over.

Eric, no problem, you are definitely one of the good guys on here. I didn't look at your comments as a personal jab at all, and actually agree with what you were saying. Same thing I was basically saying about how many people won't go along with such changes because it doesn't personally benefit them, and may actually financially harm them.

And your Step 2: is definitely true. LOL Trying to get those making so much money off stuff like that to stop, is nearly impossible if the authorities can't/won't do anything. Not much else the rest of us can do.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

Saw that limitation as well John. So, the big question is then, what is their definition of 'damages".

Someone buys a card and pays based on the incorrect grade, and then takes it back to CSG to be re-holdered and finds out it was incorrectly graded. I assume "damages" would be the amount they overpaid for the card based on what it's correct FMV at the time of the purchase would have been, had it been properly graded to begin with. Of course, that also assumes that CSG agrees/affirms that they incorrectly graded the card to begin with. They could just re-holder it with the incorrect grade and say nothing. And you can't go to a different TPG that says the grade is wrong, because to my knowledge, NONE of the TPGs will ever recognize, affirm, or rely upon the grading opinions of any other TPGs out there, nor are they legally bound to. (Another big reason I keep saying we need one set of grading standards recognized across the entire hobby, and that ALL the TPGs are forced to follow and recognize among themselves.)

But what about an owner that goes to sell a card they've owned for a long time, and can now make a big profit on because that card's value has skyrocketed over the years. They find a potential buyer, but the potential buyer questions the grade. So the parties agree to have it reviewed. Potential buyer and seller take the card to a local show that CSG is in attendance at, and ask them to review the grade. CSG acknowledges it is incorrectly over graded, and the potential buyer backs out of the deal. So the owner, who also happens to be the one who originally submitted the card to CSG for grading, takes it back to CSG and says they just lost $XXXX of profit on the card's sale because of their grading mistake. And say the owner was counting on and really needed that money to pay for some medical expenses, or maybe college tuition for a child, or some other personal need or reason. What, if any, are the "damages" CSG would recognize and pay/reimburse the owner for? I can certainly see what the owner would view as his "damages".

It would be so much nicer if these types/kinds of guarantees/agreements weren't always so ambiguous. Makes you start to wonder if the businesses/attorneys that came up with them didn't do that intentionally all along.

[Fred]

What does SGC stand for? I always thought it was Sportscard Guarantee Company. Maybe I've been wrong all this time. I guess it must mean Sportscard Grading Company.

I don't trust these companies very much but I'll be honest and admit I've sent hundreds of cards to both PSA and SGC in the past. I haven't sent anything in in at least 8-10 years because the pricing/fee structure based on card valuation just got a bit too much for me to keep up with.

It was interesting to deal with PSA. One time they sent back a 1971T card in really nice condition saying it had color added. I was like floored. I owned the card since the 70s and I know I didn't make any alterations to it. The card was sent in again and came back with an "8" grade. After getting a few cards back with the "OC" designation I scratched my head. Ok, the cards weren't perfectly centered but you could easily guess that they just eyeball these things. I had cards returned that I thought were OC when submitted without the OC qualifier. I never made the request of "No qualifiers" for the submissions.

I stuck more with SGC after a while because I liked the holders with the nice black contrasting.

If there was two things I liked about GAI holders it's the black background contrast (like SGC) and that little ID tag they put at the top edge of the slab (see picture below).

Regarding rebacked cards, sometimes it's not very easy to determine if an OJ was rebacked. The albumen image for the card for this thread (Darling) obviously doesn't cover the entire surface area for the backing/stiffner, but I've seen a lot of OJs like this and assumed the card was probably at the top of the albumen sheet and the cutter just missed the top edge of the sheet. I've seen it that way on bottoms and sides also and make the same assumption.

Obvious rebacked cards are easy to detect because the backing seems very different from most OJs. For examples, stock is too thick, wrong type of material/stock, the backing isn't creased or damaged even though the photo has that defect.

What would be nice if there were "industry standards" that all TPGs would adhere to. For example (one of my pet peeves), no numerical grades to cards that are hand cut or have a tab removed, like a Zeenut.

If there are no guarantees associated with the actual card grading, (cover the card owner for monetary losses due to an egregious error in grading), then the only reason I could see for a fee structure based on card value is to cover insurance and I'm going to guess that these TPGs aren't paying the amount charged for the grading to cover the insurance cost. I'm guessing they're pocketing quite a bit of that fee.

Maybe one day the TPGs will come up with an environmentally friendly material other than plastic for the slabs. Ok, just joking there. But it makes you wonder just how much plastic has been used to encapsulate all this cardboard.

[swarmee]

SGC did originally have 'Guaranty' in their name, but when they went to the tuxedo flips, they rebranded as gosgc.com and eliminated the words that SGC stood for, while also eliminating their grade guarantee.
Even before that time, when the guarantee was in effect, it was only for cards graded during the present ownership group. So when the company was sold, none of those previously graded cards were grandfathered into the guarantee, because the liability was effectively absolved during the sale.