How do you rate the Negro League greats when discussing the history of baseball?

[Jason19th]

It’s important to make a differentiation between quality of the leagues and the quality of the players. I believe that it is just historical malpractice to argue that the leagues were equal. Up until the 1940’s even the best negro league teams only carried 13-15 players at a time , had terribly unstable rosters with players jumping contacts all over the world, had no athletic training, poor transportation and even worse lodging. If you put the 1932 Chicago American giants in the National league and asked them to play 154 games they would have finished in last place 40 games back. The Negro league teams were not built to play the same type of season that the majors played. This is not criticizing the Negro league but merely recognizing the world they lived in the effects of existing in Jim Crow America. I would argue that by trying equalize the leagues we are actually writing out the racist reality that drove the inequality
The players however were often clearly the equal of major leaguers. Taking the same 1932 Chicago American team there were two Hofers Foster and Stearns and a couple of players who would have been perineal all stars at least in Radcliffe and Malarcher. Move any of these players into the National league in 1932 and they are still great

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

It’s important to make a differentiation between quality of the leagues and the quality of the players. I believe that it is just historical malpractice to argue that the leagues were equal. Up until the 1940’s even the best negro league teams only carried 13-15 players at a time , had terribly unstable rosters with players jumping contacts all over the world, had no athletic training, poor transportation and even worse lodging. If you put the 1932 Chicago American giants in the National league and asked them to play 154 games they would have finished in last place 40 games back. The Negro league teams were not built to play the same type of season that the majors played. This is not criticizing the Negro league but merely recognizing the world they lived in the effects of existing in Jim Crow America. I would argue that by trying equalize the leagues we are actually writing out the racist reality that drove the inequality
The players however were often clearly the equal of major leaguers. Taking the same 1932 Chicago American team there were two Hofers Foster and Stearns and a couple of players who would have been perineal all stars at least in Radcliffe and Malarcher. Move any of these players into the National league in 1932 and they are still great

Agreed

My 2 cents

Based on many articles and other available information, it's obvious the black players were just as good as the white players.

I just find it hard to integrate the stats and make comparisons between the Negro League stats and MLB stats because the Negro league stats are not even close to being complete, which is a total shame.

Believe me, I'm not inferring that the Negro League stats are meaningless. For all we know with complete stats, Oscar Charleston could be the lifetime batting average leader but there will never be that apples to apples comparison available.

[RCFire82]

Josh Gibson

162 game average:

BA .374 - Hits 218 - OBP 458
HR 45 - Runs 165 - SLG 720
RBI 198 - BB 90 - OPS 1.178

Not too shabby.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Fred

Agreed

My 2 cents

Based on many articles and other available information, it's obvious the black players were just as good as the white players.

I just find it hard to integrate the stats and make comparisons between the Negro League stats and MLB stats because the Negro league stats are not even close to being complete, which is a total shame.

Believe me, I'm not inferring that the Negro League stats are meaningless. For all we know with complete stats, Oscar Charleston could be the lifetime batting average leader but there will never be that apples to apples comparison available.

Yes, it is impossible to make an apples to apples comparison between players in the Negro Leagues and those in MLB. But by acknowledging the stats of the 7 Major Negro Leagues, Baseball Reference is bringing more recognition to these great players, which I think is both long overdue and fair.

Because Baseball Reference only counts the 7 Major Negro Leagues, which had the best competition, the counting stats are very low, so you have Josh Gibson with 165 career Home Runs, rather than the ~800 Home Runs he may have hit when you consider all his games. And Gibson doesn't qualify for career Batting Average because he had fewer than 3,000 plate appearances in Major Negro League Play.

But its tricky, like you say, when saying Oscar Charleston had the 2nd best career batting average ever at .364 with 3,920 Plate Appearances. Its tricky to compare Oscar Charleston to Ty Cobb, Hornsby, etc. but I still think it is the right thing to do, given the similarity of stats between the 7 Major Negro Leagues and the MLB, and the quality of players/teams.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I completely exclude Negro Leaguers when talking of this era, the only reason being that I need solid numbers to look at, not incomplete stats and a lot of homespun exaggeration. "I saw Josh Gibson hit a ball 800 feet blindfolded using only a toothpick!" Yeah, OK... Thankfully, people are certainly trying to complete those stats as best as is possible, but still... It's just difficult to look at career stats that were recorded as properly as possible vs. the unfortunate shambles that we've been left with for the Negro Leaguers. It's not fair to those players, but I wasn't there to witness their prowess and have to have something concrete to rely on if I can speak with any accuracy.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I completely exclude Negro Leaguers when talking of this era, the only reason being that I need solid numbers to look at, not incomplete stats and a lot of homespun exaggeration. "I saw Josh Gibson hit a ball 800 feet blindfolded using only a toothpick!" Yeah, OK... Thankfully, people are certainly trying to complete those stats as best as is possible, but still... It's just difficult to look at career stats that were recorded as properly as possible vs. the unfortunate shambles that we've been left with for the Negro Leaguers. It's not fair to those players, but I wasn't there to witness their prowess and have to have something concrete to rely on if I can speak with any accuracy.

The stats recognized by Baseball Reference and SABR are solid. A painstaking and thorough process by Seamheads and others took place to gather them.

[packs]

If you believe Satchel Paige was perhaps the greatest pitcher of all time, then why not trust what he has to say about players only he and players like him got to see?

Francisco Coimbre was perhaps the greatest player Puerto Rico ever produced right up until Clemente. Clemente himself said Coimbre had no equal on the diamond.

And this is what Satchel had to say about him: “Coimbre could not be pitched to. No one gave me more trouble than anyone I ever faced, including Josh Gibson and Ted Williams.”

[z28jd]

I think what a lot of people here say is true and it can be compared to something like picking out players from a specific state now to play against everyone else. They would still have great players, but overall the talent would be lacking.

Everyone has to remember how popular baseball was back then and how small a percentage of the population was able to play in the Negro Leagues. If you right now made a team just of players born in Texas, they would have great players and their All-Star team could beat other MLB teams. But if you tried to put together a 30-team MLB league of just players born in Texas, you would have a lot of guys well below MLB quality. The greats would still be great though, regardless of the league. Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Oscar Charleston, etc would still be Hall of Famers, not doubt.

I think that's a lot like what integration would have been. I sometimes find it comical when people use that excuse to talk down Babe Ruth. How many Negro League players would be good enough for the majors back then? Let's say 35, while remembering the small size of MLB back then. Half of those players would be in the NL and never face him. Half of that remaining 17-18 would be position players. You have eight players left for eight teams, and how many do you think the Yankees would have? Probably the best available 1-2 guys. Then figure in that how much better would those players be than the guys they were replacing? Probably not a huge difference when you're getting down to about 5-6 guys. You're talking about 20-30 at-bats a season where he's facing slightly better MLB pitchers. Maybe his stats suffer a little, but so would everyone else and he would still be that much better than them.

If you look at it the other way though, those Negro League players would be facing much better players on average, so their stats would suffer more, plus they would still being seeing the best players of their own league.

I think the population size and ability to play ball often gets overlooked. Segregation wasn't just happening in the majors, it was everywhere at the time, and that affected the ability to play ball regularly for some. Think of how many white players got to play college baseball, then they went out to the minors or semi-pro and played during the summer