T206, or not....let's have a continuing conversation....Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco card

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

T206 is flawed as a set compared to e102, where the checklist is on the back.

The E102 set is not as straightfoward as it seems on the back, as 25 players are on the back checklist, but there are actually 29 cards, with two different pose variations for players Doyle, Miller, Wagner and Schmidt (with one of the Schmidt cards misspelled Smith).

Just trying to shift this tobacky thread into a candy thread, to the dismay of the doctors on here, but probably to the delight of the dentists.

Brian (E102, the King of the Anonymous Licking Candy World)

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

The E102 set is not as straightfoward as it seems on the back, as 25 players are on the back checklist, but there are actually 29 cards, with two different pose variations for players Doyle, Miller, Wagner and Schmidt (with one of the Schmidt cards misspelled Smith).

Just trying to shift this tobacky thread into a candy thread, to the dismay of the doctors on here, but probably to the delight of the dentists.

Brian (E102, the King of the Anonymous Licking Candy World)

It's a set of 25 players with 29 cards and we don't know who made them or what they were given out with. Do we know e102 are candy cards? I kind of wish I hadn't posted in this thread, and just read, like JimB told that guy to do in 2010.

[FrankWakefield]

If, in front of us on a table, there were about a thousand white border tobacco cards that we know as T206s (no slabs) laying there on the table, face up, and one of them was the Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card... It would leap out at us in our field of vision. It ALONE would be the only card with the glossy front. A lingering question would be why does only one of these cards have a glossy front?

We flip all of the cards face down (gently, they aren't in slabs). There would be a variety of backs... but only one card that has Ty Cobb King Of The Smoking Tobacco World. And all of the cards but one reference Baseball Subjects or Baseball Series.... all except one card, that sole glossy front card.

And if we asked a wife, a third grader, or most anyone with walking around sense (that would exclude me and most collectors) to find the one card on the table full of cards that is different from the others, I think they'd easily separate out that Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card from the rest.

In my mind is this story of ATC folks going to Georgia to talk with Ty about lending his name to a new brand, and they had printed a sample of cards to give him. And that's where the cards came from, and how they happened to be found in Georgia.

Let me simplify that table of cards. There's about a dozen cards there, all have a red portrait Cobb on the front, although one has a glossy sheen on the front. And those backs... there's one Ty Cobb King of the Smoking World back, and the others are all Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, Cycle, Polar Bear, El Principe de Gales, and Old Mill. All but one of the backs have Baseball Series or Baseball Subjects.... and the one that doesn't is that Cobb King of the Smoking World card. Which card is different from all the others?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

If, in front of us on a table, there were about a thousand white border tobacco cards that we know as T206s (no slabs) laying there on the table, face up, and one of them was the Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card... It would leap out at us in our field of vision. It ALONE would be the only card with the glossy front. A lingering question would be why does only one of these cards have a glossy front?

We flip all of the cards face down (gently, they aren't in slabs). There would be a variety of backs... but only one card that has Ty Cobb King Of The Smoking Tobacco World. And all of the cards but one reference Baseball Subjects or Baseball Series.... all except one card, that sole glossy front card.

And if we asked a wife, a third grader, or most anyone with walking around sense (that would exclude me and most collectors) to find the one card on the table full of cards that is different from the others, I think they'd easily separate out that Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card from the rest.

In my mind is this story of ATC folks going to Georgia to talk with Ty about lending his name to a new brand, and they had printed a sample of cards to give him. And that's where the cards came from, and how they happened to be found in Georgia.

Let me simplify that table of cards. There's about a dozen cards there, all have a red portrait Cobb on the front, although one has a glossy sheen on the front. And those backs... there's one Ty Cobb King of the Smoking World back, and the others are all Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, Cycle, Polar Bear, El Principe de Gales, and Old Mill. All but one of the backs have Baseball Series or Baseball Subjects.... and the one that doesn't is that Cobb King of the Smoking World card. Which card is different from all the others?

Good points frank it would also be the only factory 33 and non ATC owned brand from the T206 era in any complete set.

Ty Cobb Tobacco.jpg


img354.jpg

[nolemmings]

there also are blurbs in other papers from June 1909 saying only "And now they have named a smoke after Ty Cobb"

[Rhotchkiss]

Great thread Ted.

I think Frank makes a very compelling argument for why the Ty Cobb back is NOT a T206; although any self-respecting red cobb back run (like Jamie's) should include the Cobb back IMO.

On a different note, what is the prevailing argument for why T213-1 and T215-1 are not T206s? They were produced/distributed in 1910 (during the 1909-1911 print time), they have the same exact front pictures, including the black name print, and they were distributed in packs of cigarettes/tobacco. The only reason I can think to not classify them as T206 is because, unlike other established T206s, they have later versions (i.e., type 2, type 3, pirate, etc). In other words, T213 and T215 are not T206s because, unlike other T206s, their adds are carried on cards with the same fronts that were issued after 1911; thus the need to classify them as separate from T206 to catalogue the versions.

[insidethewrapper]

My opinion is the Cobb/Cobb back should not be considered a T206. From what I understand only a couple of people had them in small groups. I don't believe they were issued in packs if a couple had them all. I still think it was a promo card, maybe for Coke or car dealership in the Atlanta area etc.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

On a different note, what is the prevailing argument for why T213-1 and T215-1 are not T206s?

Hi Ryan, I think the main argument is the T213-1s and T215-1s were printed on much thinner paper stock than T206s.

(edited ... just T213-1s are thinner stock)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

If, in front of us on a table, there were about a thousand white border tobacco cards that we know as T206s (no slabs) laying there on the table, face up, and one of them was the Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card... It would leap out at us in our field of vision. It ALONE would be the only card with the glossy front. A lingering question would be why does only one of these cards have a glossy front?

We flip all of the cards face down (gently, they aren't in slabs). There would be a variety of backs... but only one card that has Ty Cobb King Of The Smoking Tobacco World. And all of the cards but one reference Baseball Subjects or Baseball Series.... all except one card, that sole glossy front card.

And if we asked a wife, a third grader, or most anyone with walking around sense (that would exclude me and most collectors) to find the one card on the table full of cards that is different from the others, I think they'd easily separate out that Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb card from the rest.

In my mind is this story of ATC folks going to Georgia to talk with Ty about lending his name to a new brand, and they had printed a sample of cards to give him. And that's where the cards came from, and how they happened to be found in Georgia.

Let me simplify that table of cards. There's about a dozen cards there, all have a red portrait Cobb on the front, although one has a glossy sheen on the front. And those backs... there's one Ty Cobb King of the Smoking World back, and the others are all Piedmont, Sovereign, Sweet Caporal, Cycle, Polar Bear, El Principe de Gales, and Old Mill. All but one of the backs have Baseball Series or Baseball Subjects.... and the one that doesn't is that Cobb King of the Smoking World card. Which card is different from all the others?

I think that Frank makes the best argument. Considering the differences with both the backs and the glossy (Cobb back) or paper (Coupon) card stocks, it seems like the Red Cross and Coupons have more in common with T206 cards than the Cobb back has.

And there is the question of distribution as well. Ted, has anyone ever shown
how the Cobb backs were distributed? I know that some believe that they were in Cobb tins, but that seems unlikely. Do we know if they were ever in any type of pack? It seems like they could have just been a promotional giveaway, especially since more than half the known cards came from two finds.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

And there is the question of distribution as well. Ted, has anyone ever shown
how the Cobb backs were distributed? I know that some believe that they were in Cobb tins, but that seems unlikely. Do we know if they were ever in any type of pack? It seems like they could have just been a promotional giveaway, especially since more than half the known cards came from two finds.

Hi Sean

No packs known.

The image on the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin is the batting version printed on the 1909 T206 Cobb
card. This is consistent with ATC's initial marketing of the Ty Cobb Smoking Tobacco in 1909.




However, the image American Lithographic used for this Cobb card is the red portrait version.
Which was first printed in 1910 (or very late 1909).

To me, this imaging inconsistency suggests that the red portrait Cobb card was not intended
to be stuffed in the Tobacco tin.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[parkerj33]

Just had a thought regarding Burdick decision to group things together as t206 vs. t213-1, t215-1 etc... I think we all agree that there are plenty of reasons he could have considered a broader definition of t206 that included those sets, or perhaps narrower that didn't include the cobb/cobb. Perhaps his decisions were not completely arbitrary or completely his own? Maybe amongst he and the other collectors of that time (1920s-1940s: Bray, Conlon, Carter, Wagner, et al) prior to his first ACC publication, they had already effectively decided which cards should be grouped together as the t206 (which i believe based on leon's posting of original documentation was called the #521 white border set).

If there was already a loose consensus of what would be in a white border set (what we call t-206) perhaps he was just following the prevailing thoughts. Maybe the few collectors of the time were already not considering coupons or red cross's as t206.

fyi, it was called #521 but that # was only coincidentally close to the actual size of the set. i think #520 was t205, for example....and that might also have driven his motivation to make have the gold borders come before the white borders in his new numbering scheme.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by parkerj33

Just had a thought regarding Burdick decision to group things together as t206 vs. t213-1, t215-1 etc... I think we all agree that there are plenty of reasons he could have considered a broader definition of t206 that included those sets, or perhaps narrower that didn't include the cobb/cobb. Perhaps his decisions were not completely arbitrary or completely his own? Maybe amongst he and the other collectors of that time (1920s-1940s: Bray, Conlon, Carter, Wagner, et al) prior to his first ACC publication, they had already effectively decided which cards should be grouped together as the t206 (which i believe based on leon's posting of original documentation was called the #521 white border set).

If there was already a loose consensus of what would be in a white border set (what we call t-206) perhaps he was just following the prevailing thoughts. Maybe the few collectors of the time were already not considering coupons or red cross's as t206.

fyi, it was called #521 but that # was only coincidentally close to the actual size of the set. i think #520 was t205, for example....and that might also have driven his motivation to make have the gold borders come before the white borders in his new numbering scheme.

I have also wondered if there wasn't something Burdick and others knew that hasn't been passed down for some reason. Maybe because they just figured it as too ordinary to write down, or because it was too obscure and finicky to think anyone but them would care.

There's plenty of stuff like that in another hobby of mine, for many things the best resource was written in 1902, and even some of the original records used as a source may be lost. (and that book has errors... ) A few things were "known" in the early 1930's and are being rediscovered.