Perception of pre war baseball players vs other sports

[jingram058]

The perception by most people is that most of the truly great baseball players were in that earlier era. Perception is reality, factually or otherwise.

[packs]

Nearly every American born male was playing baseball in the pre-war era. Whereas George Mikan was the best in his era, he was only the best of the people who actually played basketball. For you to have earned even the last spot on the last place team in the worst year of the pre-war era you would have had to beat out nearly every other American male in the country for it.

Big difference in skill level relative to era.

[SAllen2556]

I would suggest golf and boxing as counter-examples to your theory. Those sports were way more popular in 1930 than football, basketball, or hockey.

Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney in boxing - just to name a few, would still be considered among the all-time greats.

Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen in golf.

The popularity of the sport has more to do with it than anything.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Baseball has done a great job of glorifying its past. Where football is concerned, if it didn't happen before the dawn of the Super Bowl era, it largely doesn't exist for many fans.

[Hankphenom]

As others have said, baseball was in full flower then, football and basketball just getting started. Still, I'd say most football fans have heard of Red Grange, Bronco Nagurski, Jim Thorpe, Knute Rockne, perhaps a few others. Boxing was also in its prime, so I think the names Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Sugar Ray Robinson would be recognized by most sports fans today. But I couldn't name you a heavyweight or any other champion from the last 20 years. How many golfers wouldn't know Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Babe Didrikson, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer as greats from the past? As for Home Run Baker, that's not a good example. I'd guess Frank Thomas and the other guys could tell you that Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Joe Dimaggio, and many others were all-time baseball legends.

[raulus]

Certainly the historical popularity of the sport has a lot to do with it.

I also wonder whether rule changes have an impact, in that they fundamentally change the nature of the game. The idea being that sports with fewer changes enjoy more stability, and history seems more relatable.

Certainly changes like adding the 3-point line and the forward pass come to mind in basketball and football that fundamentally altered the game itself.

While baseball has its share of dramatic rule changes, many of them happened a loooooooong time ago, like being able to peg a runner with the ball, or a foul ball not counting as a strike.

It could be that the stasis of the game is not as important as its historical popularity. But I'm inclined to think that it could be a factor that comes into play.

[BobbyStrawberry]

I've never understood why Mikan gets the Rodney Dangerfield treatment. The guy singlehandedly changed the game

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I've never understood why Mikan gets the Rodney Dangerfield treatment. The guy singlehandedly changed the game

I have no love or interest for the sport, but wasn't Mikan named the greatest athlete of the first half of the century at some point? I forget who bestowed the honor, but always questioned how this guy, in a then-fairly unpopular sport, would top a list of players from every professional sport in perhaps the greatest era of athleticism the world has ever known.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would suggest golf and boxing as counter-examples to your theory. Those sports were way more popular in 1930 than football, basketball, or hockey.

Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney in boxing - just to name a few, would still be considered among the all-time greats.

Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen in golf.

The popularity of the sport has more to do with it than anything.

Ben Hogan was 1950s, but you make an interesting point.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I would suggest golf and boxing as counter-examples to your theory. Those sports were way more popular in 1930 than football, basketball, or hockey.

Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney in boxing - just to name a few, would still be considered among the all-time greats.

Ben Hogan, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen in golf.

The popularity of the sport has more to do with it than anything.

This is pretty much the answer. Baseball was the #1 team sport in America for a long time (America's Sport), even if nobody really cared about it anywhere else.

Way more entrenched and way more advanced (comparatively to the modern era) compared the the other burgeoning "team" sports beginning to entertain the country.

College Football was #2, but those guys basically had 2-4 year careers and were promptly forgotten about. The Coaches were more well known then most of the players at that point.

Even the Red Granges and Bronko Nagurski's were more hailed for their college careers then their pro careers. Nagurski was probably more well known during his time as a pro-wrestler, rather then an NFL player.

[puckpaul]

To me, baseball just hasnt changed that much, so the comparisons are still valid.

I know hockey pretty well, and hockey in the first twenty years was a very different sport. There was no forward passing allowed for a long time. No curved sticks. No goalie masks (not needed, with no forward passes and that equipment, pucks not raised much). But since it was popular and continuously played as the NHL since the 20’s, there is great respect for the “best” of those days as being relevant. And there is a continuous linkage over time from early superstars overlapping with subsequent generations (morenz and shore take you to Dit Clapper then to Richard and Howe and Howe gets to Gretzky!). Baseball has a similar lineage.

Football and Basketball do not have that, so those are really treated with a huge emphasis on modern.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

And there is a continuous linkage over time from early superstars overlapping with subsequent generations (morenz and shore take you to Dit Clapper then to Richard and Howe and Howe gets to Gretzky!). Baseball has a similar lineage.

This is it for me - "passing of the torch." Let's focus on the NYY: Babe Ruth, and then Lou Gehrig, followed by Joe D, takes you to Mickey Mantle, and then Thurmon Munson, Bucky Dent and Reggie Jackson, and then Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter & Mo.

And there are villains and good guys. I follow the Reds, and I sure know who I can't stand on the Cubs and Cardinals.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

[Lorewalker]

As has been mentioned, at least once, organized baseball has been around longer and not sure any sport has embraced and celebrated/promoted its past more than baseball. Even the commercialization of the sport, by the regular issuing of baseball cards starting in 1887, indicates the significance the sport had on the public over any other sport.

[jingram058]

Yesterday I was killing some time at a local antique mall, one big former store divided up into cubicles. There was one cabinet in the back loaded with 1950s Topps and Bowman, all well-worn and way overpriced. Kept walking, and near the front, another cabinet opened up and two teenagers looking through a stack of 1962 Topps with the seller. These kids gathered a number of the Babe Ruth subset, a Frank Robinson and a Roberto Clemente while I stood there watching. An older gentleman and his wife walked up and looked on as well. The man asked the teens, do you guys know about baseball cards, and these players? Answer: yes, we do, and these 1962 cards are in decent condition and reasonably priced. I was never so amazed. At least these two guys, who looked about 14 or so, know about baseball and the cards.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

To me, baseball just hasnt changed that much, so the comparisons are still valid.

I know hockey pretty well, and hockey in the first twenty years was a very different sport. There was no forward passing allowed at first for a long time! No curved sticks. No goalie masks (not needed, with no forward passes and that equipment, pucks not raised much). But since it was popular and continuously played as the NHL since the 20’s, their is great respect for the “best” of those days as being relevant. And there is a continuous linkage over time from early superstars overlapping with subsequent generations (morenz and shore take you to Dit Clapper then to Richard and Howe and Howe gets to Gretzky!). Baseball has a similar lineage.

Football and Basketball do not have that, so those are really treated with a huge emphasis on modern.

Trivia question: who was the last goalie allowed to not wear a mask in the NHL?

[Snapolit1]

I had a lot of exposure to hockey in the 70s. Back then hockey players generally looked like guys recruited from a nearby gas station, many of them smoked, and few if any of them looked like they spent a whole lot of time in the gym. Guys today are beasts. Massive studs. Different game and no comparison to the physicality of the players.

One look at star basketball players from the 50s and clear they wouldn't last 10 minutes in today's NBA.

Football players today among the best athletes in existence (other than the really obese guys).

But we can still argue today how good Ted Williams or Walter Johnson would be today. Game hasn't changed like the others have.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

But we can still argue today how good Ted Williams or Walter Johnson would be today. Game hasn't changed like the others have.

This.

[jakebeckleyoldeagleeye]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I had a lot of exposure to hockey in the 70s. Back then hockey players generally looked like guys recruited from a nearby gas station, many of them smoked, and few if any of them looked like they spent a whole lot of time in the gym. Guys today are beasts. Massive studs. Different game and no comparison to the physicality of the players.

One look at star basketball players from the 50s and clear they wouldn't last 10 minutes in today's NBA.

Football players today among the best athletes in existence (other than the really obese guys).

But we can still argue today how good Ted Williams or Walter Johnson would be today. Game hasn't changed like the others have.

I have news for you. Gordie Howe would have kicked anybody in the NHL today back into last week. At age 15 he could take 85 pound cement sack's and hold one in each hand at arms length and not drop them. His dad won a few bets on that but you try it. He never touched a weight in his life. Imagine if he did.

[Writehooks]

Trivia answer: Andy Brown, 1974 Pittsburgh Penguins ... before he jumped to the WHA's Indianapolis Racers.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Writehooks

Trivia answer: Andy Brown, 1974 Pittsburgh Penguins ... before he jumped to the WHA's Indianapolis Racers.

Good knowledge, and brass balls hanging so low they could block shots.

[frankbmd]

I will have to mention Ellsworth Vines, a fine prewar tennis star, but Bill Tilden is probably more recognized.

[Jason19th]

I think that we forget how much older baseball is then basketball and football. By the 1930’s the game had evolved for 75 years to a form,that while is different then today, is recognizable to today fans. People can still compare the stats of 1930 to the stats of 2020. In the 1930’s football and basketball are just beginning to become the games we see today. The styles of play had almost nothing to do with what we see today. There is nothing to compare with players of today. This is why common fans still talk about Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb but have no idea who Don Hutson or Ed Wachter were.

I would argue that we shouldn’t compare football and basketball in the 1930 to 1930’s baseball, we should compare them to 1870’s baseball. While a lot of us on the board know about players like Lip Pike and Cal McVey, most baseball fans will say who’s that

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Trivia question: who was the last goalie allowed to not wear a mask in the NHL?

One look at Gump Worsley's face after years in the net without a mask makes the NHL's move prudent and wise. It would have been only a matter of time until some poor goalie got killed by an unseen, streaking slap shot.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jingram058

The perception by most people is that most of the truly great baseball players were in that earlier era. Perception is reality, factually or otherwise.

I don't think this is true, broadly speaking. It may be true with respect to this forum and the tendencies here to romanticize that era, but I don't think the rest of the sports world has fallen prey to those same delusions. Perhaps most will agree that Ruth is the GOAT, but I don't think you'll find that extended to pretty much anyone else. Maaaaybe Cobb, but certainly not with guys like Wagner, Hornsby, or Gehrig.

[refz]

I don’t think there’s to much more to cover here, most of which was already said. Baseball was earlier and more developed as a sport yes, and what also keeps old legends alive is trivia. Makes people possibly wonder and look up the player.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I don't think this is true, broadly speaking. It may be true with respect to this forum and the tendencies here to romanticize that era, but I don't think the rest of the sports world has fallen prey to those same delusions. Perhaps most will agree that Ruth is the GOAT, but I don't think you'll find that extended to pretty much anyone else. Maaaaybe Cobb, but certainly not with guys like Wagner, Hornsby, or Gehrig.

I don't think that is true. Bill James has Honus Wagner ranked #2 all time ahead of Willie Mays. Those 4 are all top 10 players all time. However, I don't think there is any doubt that the best era for baseball was 1947-1979. Williams, Musial, Jackie Robinson, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Seaver, Bench, Schmidt, etc. No other era had that depth of great players.

In the 70s you had football take over as the #1 sport with the Super Bowl, Monday Night Football and great teams in Miami, Pittsburgh, Oakland and Dallas. Then in the 80s, basketball took off with Magic, Bird and Jordan. By the strike in 1994, baseball was clearly the #3 sport after being the national pastime for so long.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by rats60

However, I don't think there is any doubt that the best era for baseball was 1947-1979. Williams, Musial, Jackie Robinson, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Clemente, Koufax, Gibson, Seaver, Bench, Schmidt, etc. No other era had that depth of great players.

I have to beg to differ. You can take any 30 year period between, say, 1900-79, rattle off a list of contemporaneous greats and say the same thing. A lot happens in thirty years, and many legends in every era.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

I have to beg to differ. You can take any 30 year period between, say, 1900-79, rattle off a list of contemporaneous greats and say the same thing. A lot happens in thirty years, and many legends in every era.

This. For exzmple 1905-1934. Cobb Speaker Wagner Ruth Jackson Lajoie Collins Sisler Hornsby Gehrig Young Mathewson Johnson Alexander Grove shall I continue? That can't rival 47-79?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This. For exzmple 1905-1934. Cobb Speaker Wagner Ruth Jackson Lajoie Collins Sisler Hornsby Gehrig Young Mathewson Johnson Alexander Grove shall I continue? That can't rival 47-79?

Definitely not preintegration.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by rats60

Definitely not preintegration.

True, the major leagues were sadly missing out on a lot of great black talent, but on the other hand, baseball was THE game for all kids back then, and MLB got the cream of a much larger white crop. I've always thought--and Goose Goslin says this on the "Glory of Their Times" audio--that the big stars then would also be great today, but because of better conditioning, training, travel conditions, etc., the average ballplayer of yesteryear wouldn't be able to compete with those of today.