Where is the second ledger of T cards?

[G1911]

While piecing together what I could find on early Turkey Red, I found some other items of baseball note that might be of interest to other researchers.

1 is this notice in the March 19, 1910 edition on Hal Chase and R.T. Carroll ""stars" of the New York American Baseball club" were doing sales work for "Ismid Cigarette Co.". R.T. Carroll was certainly not a Highlander star; he pitched 5 innings in 1909 and that was his entire MLB career. Interesting to see Chase in such reference with another firm, as T206 was in full swing and he got more cards than anyone in it.

[G1911]

I am not really a deep follower of the T204's, but this is from the July 23, 1910 issue with a July 20, 1910 Boston MA byline. This card issue is generally prescribed as a 1909 release. I don't recall this redemption program.

[G1911]

The November 12, 1910 issue placed Jimmy Sheckard as a competitor to the ATC while appearing in their card sets.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am not really a deep follower of the T204's, but this is from the July 23, 1910 issue with a July 20, 1910 Boston MA byline. This card issue is generally prescribed as a 1909 release. I don't recall this redemption program.

There is little other information on Mentor and Ramly. The only other thing I could find was an employee notice, of a Khedivial (part of the monopoly, but appears to me to have been oft position as independent) worker taking a job with Mentor's "Ramleh" later in 1910. Misspellings of brands is fairly common, for example Lenox is at least once called "Lexon".

[G1911]

And from a February 3, 1909 article we get the leadership of that company at the time. I don't know if this is useful to T204 collectors or if anyone is really digging into the history of this set, but it seems reasonable it would be.

[G1911]

I also found more evidence that Drum was not regional (off memory it's St. Louis it was said to be local too?). Here it is in the August 27, 1910 issue highlighted as being available in large packs in Brooklyn.

[Pat R]

Greg, as we have discussed before it gets really complicated because the ATL and ALC were associated with or owned so many companies it's hard to keep track of all of them.

I have to go back and find some of the clippings but I'm pretty sure the John Bollman Co. purchased the S. Arnargyros Co. The Bollman Co. created the Obak cigarette brand and I found where the Bollman Co. was actually owned by the American Tobacco Co. There was also another Arnargyros involved in cigarette making that resulted in a lawsuit that went on for quite a length of time.

January 11 1908
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January 14 1908
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February 2 1909
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I also found where Mecca cigarettes another ATC brand were produced by the Imperial Tobacco Co.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Greg, as we have discussed before it gets really complicated because the ATL and ALC were associated with or owned so many companies it's hard to keep track of all of them.

I have to go back and find some of the clippings but I'm pretty sure the John Bollman Co. purchased the S. Arnargyros Co. The Bollman Co. created the Obak cigarette brand and I found where the Bollman Co. was actually owned by the American Tobacco Co. There was also another Arnargyros involved in cigarette making that resulted in a lawsuit that went on for quite a length of time.

I also found where Mecca cigarettes another ATC brand were produced by the Imperial Tobacco Co.

There seems to have been a lot of these ‘fraud’ brands like the second Anargyros, piggy backing off established ATC brands and sub firms. The rejected registrations have a lot of what seem to be these, like “Count Tolstoi”. The real Anargyros and Metropolitan seem to flip flop between being front holding firms and just openly being subsidiary operators of the ATC. There’s so much inconsistency in how the ATC is operating in 1910.

Mecca in Canada is of special interest to me. The Adless version of Mecca’s T218 is labelled a Canadian issue (C52) and many of the cards have come from Canada and the American northeast, but I’ve also got an original batch from a Virginia provenance and I am not yet entirely sold on the general narrative that any T card with a card number in place of advertising is an Imperial Tobacco product. I didn’t come across anything that Turkey Red or Piedmont were actually issued in Canada, the registrations don’t mean they were actually sold there. Worthy of deeper digging

In your dives into Obak, do you have anything in your notes on Pet and Kopec? The west coast brands that released the T224/T229 set closely related to T212. Obak appears a lot in the primary material I’ve been through and seems to have been popular but these brands rarely earn mention. I would assume they were also run by the same people.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

There seems to have been a lot of these ‘fraud’ brands like the second Anargyros, piggy backing off established ATC brands and sub firms. The rejected registrations have a lot of what seem to be these, like “Count Tolstoi”. The real Anargyros and Metropolitan seem to flip flop between being front holding firms and just openly being subsidiary operators of the ATC. There’s so much inconsistency in how the ATC is operating in 1910.

Mecca in Canada is of special interest to me. The Adless version of Mecca’s T218 is labelled a Canadian issue (C52) and many of the cards have come from Canada and the American northeast, but I’ve also got an original batch from a Virginia provenance and I am not yet entirely sold on the general narrative that any T card with a card number in place of advertising is an Imperial Tobacco product. I didn’t come across anything that Turkey Red or Piedmont were actually issued in Canada, the registrations don’t mean they were actually sold there. Worthy of deeper digging

In your dives into Obak, do you have anything in your notes on Pet and Kopec? The west coast brands that released the T224/T229 set closely related to T212. Obak appears a lot in the primary material I’ve been through and seems to have been popular but these brands rarely earn mention. I would assume they were also run by the same people.

I haven't found anything at all on Kopec but I did find a little bit about Pets Cigarettes here's an ad for them and it's the other Anagyros that the lawsuit was brought against.
February 12 1910 Oakland Tribune
[IMG][/IMG]

I'm positive I saw something on the Imperial Tobacco company producing Mecca Cigarettes but I wasn't able to locate it again yet. It was just a couple of days ago when I was researching something else. I should have saved it but they recently changed things, I used to be able to clip and save them without interrupting what I'm researching but now I have to print it out and scan it.

[sb1]

Originally Posted by G1911

I am not really a deep follower of the T204's, but this is from the July 23, 1910 issue with a July 20, 1910 Boston MA byline. This card issue is generally prescribed as a 1909 release. I don't recall this redemption program.

This offer was for the large and very rare team composite premiums, not the cards which were first offered in 1909 with ads in local newspapers and Red Sox scorecards.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by sb1

This offer was for the large and very rare team composite premiums, not the cards which were first offered in 1909 with ads in local newspapers and Red Sox scorecards.

Thank you! I have a TTT and blank back to serve as types in my collection but I don’t know Ramly and Mentor well at all.