Top 100 Errors / Variations and the state of collections these cards prior to 1985

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by richtree

Hey all,

I have been working on a side project for a few months now.

I am attempting to to build a list of the Top 100 Errors and Variations based on the impact they had to the hobby.

I have a few drafts ready, but the reason for this post is two requests if anyone would like to help me.

#1 I began collected in 1985 and don't really remember anything prior to that time period. I was wondering from people collecting in the 70s and early 80s were there error cards that impacted the hobby ? Were some well known or considered important at the time that are no longer discussed ?

#2 I would love to hear what people would consider a card that needs to be on the top 50 list (besides many of the obvious).


If there are any volunteers that want to discuss deeper and share some of the drafts offline feel free to email me or inbox me (or let me know that I can contact you)....

It seems of late there has been more interest in these cards again and I feel I am ready to dive in deeper and would love to discuss with others on the board that either have the same passion or willing to share their historical knowledge...

thanks and happy new year to all !

rich t
richtree@gmail.com

Rich:

To answer part of your questions above, YES, there were error cards collected, discussed, and written about not only in the 70's and 80's but also in the 60's when I started collecting.

Back then we had 54 Bowman #66 Williams and Piersall, 49 Leaf Hermanski and Hermansk, Alberson with both sleeves, 50 Bowman with and without bottom line on reverse, 62 Topps green tints to name just a few.

There was actually an E&V booklet printed and issued by old time collector from Philadelphia named Irv Lerner and later another by Ralph Nozaki titled Errors and Variations 1948-1976 which I still have.

So E&V's have been part of the hobby for quite awhile, probably even before the 60's.

If you have a list you want to post here, I am sure you will get comments, additions, corrections to that list to help you solidify what you are looking for.

[swarmee]

The 1954 Bowman stat and trivia answer errors would probably be a grouping in the Top 25/50.

[BobC]

richtree,

There are a lot of members that will likely have tons of info and knowledge on errors and variations that you will find on this forum. They are attempting to answer questions for you, but really don't have any basis to start from. To be able to really help you and answer some of your questions, it is critical to know exactly what you are asking about. Honestly, in looking at your initial request, and subsequent interactions and responses to others posting, I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do.

Here is a list of initial concerns and questions that immediately jumped out at me in regard to your thread:

1. You want help listing the top 100 E&Vs that have impacted the hobby. Great, but what exactly do you mean by "impact"? Your definition and meaning can be completely different from everyone else's, and you haven't really given us any clue as to exactly what "your" definition of "impact" is. For example, to many people an Error or Variation that is considered impactful to the hobby could be one that was considered important enough to be listed by Bob Lemke and his crew in the old Krause/SCD catalogs, or in any of the other well-known established price/card guides (like the Beckett price guides) of the day.

2. You say you have an actual list of what you feel are the top 25 E&Vs, and maybe 60 or so total of the top 100 so far, but fail to share those lists with us so we can have a much better idea of exactly what it is "you" are looking for. Again, you are making up this list based on "your" thoughts and parameters. And since none of us can read your mind, the best we can do is only guess at what you are really looking for and trying to put together. And then when some people tried posting some things they thought might go/belong on such a list, you respond, "I don't want to turn this post into a list of random variations and errors unless you think these are some of the most impactful?" But again, you completely fail to tell any of us exactly what your definition of "impactful to the hobby" is or provide your list so we can see examples of what you consider impactful. Is there some reason you are unable (or unwilling) to share your list(s) with everybody?

3. Is there a particular time frame or era that this list of E&Vs is restricted to, or only supposed to cover, or is it all-time over the course of the entire collecting history of baseball cards? You talk about having E&V knowledge going back to 1985, and are looking for additional help for your list for the 10-20 years before that. You also started this thread in thread in the post-1980 forum. So does that mean you are really only interested in E&Vs from 1980 till today, from around 1965 to present day, or are you including those going all the way back to the start of cards being produced as well? You've never really stated that exact parameter. And for example, someone posted about some '54 Bowman errors, but you haven't yet responded to acknowledge if those are or are not the type (or era) of E&Vs you are talking about and looking for. And if '54 Bowman E&Vs are okay for your list, how far back is?

4. You also made reference in your original post to some E&Vs that supposedly "obviously" belong on your top 50 E&V list. "#2 I would love to hear what people would consider a card that needs to be on the top 50 list (besides many of the obvious)." So, what are these "obvious" E&Vs that would belong on such a list? Are we talking about things like the Frank Thomas NNOF and Billy Ripken FF error cards? Again, knowing that would be very inciteful and helpful to those trying to help you out. For example, when coming to a predominantly pre-war forum and group like Net54, I would think the idea of "obvious" top 50 E&Vs would include things like the T206 Magee/Magie or the Doyle N.Y. Nat'l error cards. Are either of those already in your top 25 or 50 E&V list, because I can pretty much guarantee you that both will be for a huge majority of members here on Net54 when it comes to E&Vs considered as impactful to the hobby?

Good luck with your project.

[swarmee]

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

All great points and questions, and why we need richtree to be a lot more informative as to exactly what he is looking for. There are literally thousands and thousands of errors and variations that have occurred in cards since they first started creating them back in the 1800s. Hopefully he'll be back and fill in some more of the details of exactly what he's looking for so he can get the help he's looking for. I'm interested in seeing what this list turns out to be.

If nothing else, it will be a start for a great debate among people as to what does or does not belong on such a list, or where different E&Vs get ranked on it. It is a great topic.

[swarmee]

1933 Goudey #106 Lajoie was intentionally not printed (skip-numbered). This outraged kids at the time, and Goudey printed up some the following year and sent them as gifts to kids who wrote the company angrily wondering where that card was. So I think that would be a historically significant Top 25 type error. Presuming it fits your definition of error.

[ocjack]

Probably should include the 1957 Topps Gene Baker (Bakep misprint). Before price guides, I searched dealer commons for at least 15+ years and only found 2 in all that time.

[Rich Klein]

I really don't consider the 1933 Goudey Lajoie an error, I consider that a marketing ploy

Just my opinion

Rich

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, I'd think the Magie error is a critically important one for the hobby. I'm guessing the 1989 Ripken FF and 1990 Thomas NNOF are definitely in the mix, along with the other ones affected in the same Topps printing sheet. Doyle is super-valuable, but maybe Nodgrass variation is not in the top 50.

What about cards made of people who were not licensed to be printed and had to be cut down or removed from sets, like 1959 Fleer "Ted Signs for '59" or 2006 Topps Alex Gordon cutout or 2007 Lavarr Arrington (FB) cutout.
[URL="https://www.comc.com/Cards,sr,=2006+alex+gordon,+297,ot,i100"]

Ted signs was pulled because Fleer didn't have permission to include Bucky Harris on cards, and is therefore a valued short print I would put on a Top 50 list.

1959 Fleer Ted Williams - [Base] #68 - Jan. 23, 1959- Ted Signs for 1959 [PSA 5 EX]
Courtesy of COMC.com

Also on the modern list should be the RC of Beltran, even though it wasn't corrected.

1995 Topps Traded & Rookies - [Base] #18T - Carlos Beltran (Juan LeBron pictured)
Courtesy of COMC.com

My list would pretty much parallel John 's list above. I would probably add a few more of the '52 Topps variations like the mid-series gray backs, House Yellow Tiger and Campos star/black star and partial border breaks. Any '52 Topps collector generally considers these variations as must haves

[richtree]

Hey all , thanks for the initial replies.

I think maybe posting a few of my top ones and what I consider impactful may be helpful.

I think some of you think my lack of # of posts may be looking for direction. I am not. The purpose of this was to brainstorm and discuss a topic I have passion about.

I really didn't collect prior to the year 1986 ( i was 8 years old then) and I know this board has some knowledge.

Ill post top 5 or 10 with a write up today after work

thanks

[Rich Klein]

One card, 15 years later, which has receded into the midst was the 2007 Topps Derek Jeter card with Mickey Mantle and George W. Bush in the background (they were later removed)

Topps did that to boost sales and it sure succeeded, in fact, it took years for 2007 Topps 1 product to end up at a price point where I could actually do what I used to like to do and buy a series 1 box each year. I'm not the only one who buys series 1 just as a tradition as it's the largest produced product ANY card manufacturer does in a given year.

But that helped spawn a ton of the modern variations

Rich

[steve B]

I started really collecting in late 77, and saw the Nozaki list sometime around early 78?
I knew about the errors and variations, but very few were a big deal with any lasting interest. Most of what's listed are good candidates for a list.
Mine? A shorter list focused mostly on the cards popular at the time.

Magie - one of the big deal cards, and one that was just never seen

The 74 Washington National League. - from my first full year collecting! and at least in my neighborhood a big deal. Didn't get many, and the rumors about them and other cards in the set- or not... Was there or wasn't there a checklist for Washington? (Nope)
And the card that never existed - and As manager card with a question mark instead of a photo supposedly because the manager was named a bit late. No idea where that came from, but I did look for that card for a few years.

79 Bump Wills - First real major variation in a few years, it was popular until

1981- Fleer Graig/Craig Nettles. That was THE card to get that year. Yes, Fleer had a bunch of other variations, as did Donruss and Topps. Some of the others especially the hands on the fleer made a lot of people think the variations were deliberate. (To me- The Topps ones were just their usual sloppiness, the Donruss were from them rushing the set and fixing mistakes later. And most of the Fleer were the same. The fingers I thought were deliberate and done to add to their sales.

82 Fleer - Littlefield reversed negative another "must get" variation, but at a time when the whole variations thing had mostly run out of gas.
82 Topps Blackless - not well understood at the time, also pretty popular in a time of fading interest.

89 Ripken F - Just difficult enough and just flashy/shocking enough to generate a lot of interest even outside of the hobby.

90 Topps - Thomas NNOF. Tough enough that it was years before I saw one in person, and thought it was just a printing flaw. (It is, but more interesting than I'd thought.)
90 Donruss- Not all that tough for the most part, but not always easy. Briefly popular and gave a bit of life to variation collecting.

After that.... and even before that, well into the junk wax era, where some most? sets were produced in multiple plants and like 91 Fleer had trivial variations on pretty much every card. That sort of knocked variation collecting back. Like how many cards does anyone really want where it's like
A - Whole ankle shows
B - almost all of ankle shows.
I really like variations, and even I don't chase that stuff (although I do chase stuff that's even worse, like 93UD back gloss differences, and general UD hologram changes.)

Honorable mention although they didn't have much effect at all - George C Miller having two different backs for each card.... shocking when I learned of it. They're uncommon enough, but they did two different small press runs? What the _