Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Packs, check out their WAR7:
Hernandez 41.2
Mattingly 35.8

Most people would agree that 4 good years is not enough to make it to the Hall of Fame.

Mattingly was a better hitter in in '85 and '86 than Keith ever was. But Keith had a longer career and was more consistent.

Their career WARs aren't even close.

There are very few people that consider Mattingly to be the best fielding first basement ever, but there are many that believe Hernandez was. And the stats support this. Check out some tape of Hernandez. He was absurd.

It has been explained that Hernandez has a WAR out of whack with his performance. Whereas he has been rewarded for his defense, Mattingly has for some reason been punished, even though they have the same exact profile at first base. Nobody who played with Mattingly had anything different to say about his glove. He was all world as well but for whatever reason WAR doesn't reward him.

Even with his healthy career and longevity, Hernandez's counting stats are either below or only barely above Mattingly. Mattingly has more home runs, more RBIs, a higher career average, and a higher career OPS.

Hernandez has 29 more hits in 3 additional seasons and scored 117 more runs.

You said Mattingly had a four year peak. How did he eclipse Hernandez so much if Hernandez had this great HOF career?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

It has been explained that Hernandez has a WAR out of whack with his performance. Whereas he has been rewarded for his defense, Mattingly has for some reason been punished, even though they have the same exact profile at first base. Nobody who played with Mattingly had anything different to say about his glove. He was all world as well but for whatever reason WAR doesn't reward him.

Even with his healthy career and longevity, Hernandez's counting stats are either below or only barely above Mattingly. Mattingly has more home runs, more RBIs, a higher career average, and a higher career OPS.

Hernandez has 29 more hits in 3 additional seasons and scored 117 more runs.

You said Mattingly had a four year peak. How did he eclipse Hernandez so much if Hernandez had this great HOF career?

It’s odd that the burden is on Hernandez supporters to explain why dWAR likes him. Perhaps you should explain why dWAR didn’t like Mattingly?

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

It’s odd that the burden is on Hernandez supporters to explain why dWAR likes him. Perhaps you should explain why dWAR didn’t like Mattingly?

I can't. And that's the point. Mattingly had 9 gold gloves. If 11 gold gloves is a testament to Hernandez, how can 9 not be for Mattingly?

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by packs

I can't. And that's the point. Mattingly had 9 gold gloves. If 11 gold gloves is a testament to Hernandez, how can 9 not be for Mattingly?

Not all Gold Gloves are created equal.

Check out their actual fielding stats:
Hernandez led the league in double plays turned 6x (the guy was doing 3-6-3 double plays),total zone runs at 1B 8x , assists at 1B 5x.

Mattingly led the league in double plays turned 2x, total zone runs as 1B 1x, assists at 1B zero times.

Please show me someone that thinks Mattingly was a better fielder than Hernandez.

Also note that Hernandez career OBP was much higher than Mattingly's and his OPS+ was slightly better too.

[packs]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Not all Gold Gloves are created equal.

Check out their actual fielding stats:
Hernandez led the league in double plays turned 6x (the guy was doing 3-6-3 double plays),total zone runs at 1B 8x , assists at 1B 5x.

Mattingly led the league in double plays turned 2x, total zone runs as 1B 1x, assists at 1B zero times.

Please show me someone that thinks Mattingly was a better fielder than Hernandez.

Also note that Hernandez career OBP was much higher than Mattingly's and his OPS+ was slightly better too.

OPS+ differs by 1 point. Hernandez played 17 seasons to Mattingly's injury plagued 14, of which you said only 4 seasons were peak performance. How did a guy who played 10 seasons of injury plagued baseball end up so close to a healthy Hernandez?

Because there's almost nothing that separates them, that's how. Except that Mattingly had to be hurt most of his career to end up so close to Hernandez.

And as long as you want to keep hanging onto gold gloves, during their contemporary careers, Mattingly won the AL gold glove every single season Hernandez won the NL gold glove (besides 1984, but then Keith didn't win one in 1989), making him Hernandez's direct counterpart

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by packs

OPS+ differs by 1 point. Hernandez played 17 seasons to Mattingly's injury plagued 14, of which you said only 4 seasons were peak performance. How did a guy who played 10 seasons of injury plagued baseball end up so close to a healthy Hernandez?

Because there's almost nothing that separates them, that's how. Except that Mattingly had to be hurt most of his career to end up so close to Hernandez.

And as long as you want to keep hanging onto gold gloves, during their contemporary careers, Mattingly won the AL gold glove every single season Hernandez won the NL gold glove (besides 1984, but then Keith didn't win one in 1989), making him Hernandez's direct counterpart

They aren't that close. Hernandez has 60 career WAR, Mattingly 42 career WAR.

[packs]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

They aren't that close. Hernandez has 60 career WAR, Mattingly 42 career WAR.

If you can't point to something else, it's because it's not there. The favorable WAR for Hernandez has been discussed to death.

And again, Mattingly had to be hurt for the majority of his career for Hernandez to put up similar career counting statistics. He was obviously far superior to Hernandez. Why else would he have to be hurt to finish so close to him?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

It’s odd that the burden is on Hernandez supporters to explain why dWAR likes him. Perhaps you should explain why dWAR didn’t like Mattingly?

The burden is on Hernandez supporters to explain why he belongs. They and you have in this thread chosen 1B defense and WAR, which likes Hernandez for defensive reasons.

The burden is on Mattingly supporters to explain why he belongs. They do not tend to rely on 1B defense (the least important position where poor fielders are relegated because it has the smallest impact), but his peak offense production.