1910 Cleveland Naps Team panorama question

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Leon

What does it say in that lower right hand corner? Looks like a supplement...but maybe not..

If it is period, about which I have my doubts, it's most certainly a supplement or insert of some kind; there's nothing about it that resembles an original type 1 photo.

[Angyale]

Leon, it says “copyright 1910 by the Haines Photo Co. Conneaut, O(hio).”

Hank, nowhere in this thread do I state that it’s an original Type 1 photo. The original Type 1 (or at least one of them) sold at Christie’s in 2016 as I’ve already mentioned in this thread. I also posted the Mears auction that this exact item came from. It is possible that in 1910 that someone (Haines?, a Cleveland Newspaper?, etc.) could have created a lithograph that resembles a photo, but not be an actual photo. I don’t think I’m going too far out on a limb or being too reckless to suggest this. Is there any way to date the ink without spending a crazy amount of money? I contacted Troy with Mears yesterday and he said in an email to me “these were printed in very limited quantities and distributed to players. Most teams have less than a handful of known examples”. Now I cant prove or disprove this statement, and Troy didn’t tell me how/where he got this info from. Also puzzling is why wasn’t that info included in the 2013 Mears auction description as you would think it would be an important selling point. So I’m back to where I started. When, where, how, and for what reason was it made?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Angyale

Hank, nowhere in this thread do I state that it’s an original Type 1 photo.

I was responding to Leon's post, not yours. And you are correct, the mysteries continue. It's hard to see how Troy can have no backup for the quite specific claims he made as to its origins. And I believe the colorized panorama I referenced was from a 1913 Cleveland newspaper, perhaps the Plain Dealer, so you are also correct about it not having any relation to this.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

Hello.

Going back to the days when Dave Bushing was very active in purchasing collections which originated direct from player estates, I was privy to several of these (various teams and years), both in real photographic and paper stock. "These" refer to the panoramic sized photos. Since these were originating directly from the players families, I am comfortable with this information being accurate. I personally viewed an oversized paper stock Chicago Whales photo and 1929 Philadelphia A's which originated from families in Milwaukee. I cannot say with certainty this was not a premium, and my response to the poster was a quick answer to an email I received and not intended to serve as official comment. I am confident these were issued to some players during the era, but I cannot say it was exclusive to players. My personal belief, without documentation to support, is these were player only. Regards, Troy

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

Hello. Going back to the days when Dave Bushing was very active in purchasing collections which originated direct from player estates, I was privy to several of these (various teams and years), both in real photographic and paper stock. "These" refer to the panoramic sized photos. Since these were originating directly from the players families, I am comfortable with this information being accurate. I personally viewed an oversized paper stock Chicago Whales photo and 1929 Philadelphia A's which originated from families in Milwaukee. I cannot say with certainty this was not a premium, and my response to the poster was a quick answer to an email I received and not intended to serve as official comment. I am confident these were issued to some players during the era, but I cannot say it was exclusive to players. My personal belief, without documentation to support, is these were player only. Regards, Troy

Hi Troy, that's a lot to digest. So you have seen other of "these"--not type I photos but yellowed paper copies of the style seen here-originating from player estates over a span of years from Cleveland in 1910 to the 29 A's and in-between with the Whales and maybe others? This implies some kind of standard paper copy process for teams to make "these" for players only. But they could also be premiums of some kind? In either case, there should be multiple examples from other auctions over the years, and perhaps there are and I just don't remember seeing them, a distinct possibility. I have no dog in this hunt, but I have handled a lot of paper stuff over the years and am familiar, as you must be also, with the generation of similarly yellowed paper-stock repros, mostly of negro league teams, that have been floating around for some time now. There have been numerous threads about these on Net54 over the years from victims inquiring about the legitimacy of their pieces, and I have thrown in my two cents worth of knowledge when I thought it might do some good. If I'm wrong in this case, I apologize in advance, but without more to go on, color me still skeptical about this one.

[MEARSAUCTIONS]

I am not making a claim that the photo discussed is authentic, as I have not reviewed it. I am just stating that I have seen paper versions which can be traced to directly to players, which leads me to believe these are not premiums but issued to players. I know the one we auctioned several years ago was original, and not a repro.
troy

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by MEARSAUCTIONS

I am not making a claim that the photo discussed is authentic, as I have not reviewed it. I am just stating that I have seen paper versions which can be traced to directly to players, which leads me to believe these are not premiums but issued to players. I know the one we auctioned several years ago was original, and not a repro.
troy

The OP posted that this IS the one from a Mears auction several years ago, so I guess you are in effect authenticating it. I would go back to the original question of how you know this: is it because Dave said it was, or the player said it was, or it came from a player's estate, or you've seen similar examples from other player's estates, or what? You're about as knowledgeable a hobby dealer as there is, and your certitude is impressive, but if it was my piece, especially in light of the prevalence of all those similar looking repros/fakes some years ago, I'd want some backup. How about another example, or even a similar example, with ironclad provenance from one of the hundreds of auctions over the years?