2023 Contemporary Era Ballot Nominees

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not in an argument. I'm just asking why you can't consider peaks over entirety? And if we're not talking about milestone numbers (like 500, 3,000, etc.), why does it matter if they played 6 or so pedestrian seasons at the end of their career? How did it factor into their HOF case?

As said earlier, if one wants to argue that peak is all that matters and longevity doesn't, and that the Hall should reward X year peaks, then that is your argument to make. It has nothing to do with the fact that Belle's career is factually short that you repeatedly objected too, even as I said I would vote for him.

Snider did not play another 6 pedestrian seasons. His extra time was all at an excellent rate, with a higher OPS+ than what you're counting for some of Belle's 10 year run. If you want to dismiss 120, 130, 140 OPS+ for Snider you must do the same for Belle to be reasonable. Snider's extra time was not him hitting .220 and being a detriment. His extra 39% is not like Pujols just hanging around and being league average or below.

How does it factor into their HOF case? Because as constituted the HOF rewards a career. Hence why Belle hasn't done well and would likely struggle even if he wasn't a prick and Snider is in, the career metrics all have Snider as having a more valuable career. He's got like 1/3 more WAR, and WAR thinks Snider was an atrocious CF.

Guy's who play 1,500 games in modernity have a hard time making the Hall. Maybe that's wrong. But it is so.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

As said earlier, if one wants to argue that peak is all that matters and longevity doesn't, and that the Hall should reward X year peaks, then that is your argument to make. It has nothing to do with the fact that Belle's career is factually short that you repeatedly objected too, even as I said I would vote for him.

Snider did not play another 6 pedestrian seasons. His extra time was all at an excellent rate, with a higher OPS+ than what you're counting for some of Belle's 10 year run. If you want to dismiss 120, 130, 140 OPS+ for Snider you must do the same for Belle to be reasonable. Snider's extra time was not him hitting .220 and being a detriment. His extra 39% is not like Pujols just hanging around and being league average or below.

How does it factor into their HOF case? Because as constituted the HOF rewards a career. Hence why Belle hasn't done well and would likely struggle even if he wasn't a prick and Snider is in, the career metrics all have Snider as having a more valuable career. He's got like 1/3 more WAR, and WAR thinks Snider was an atrocious CF.

Guy's who play 1,500 games in modernity have a hard time making the Hall. Maybe that's wrong. But it is so.

I don't know why you're still citing Snider's OPS+ figures. Look at all the numbers. That's like saying I want to dismiss Albert Belle's first two seasons, which I'm happy to do. Anyone evaluating Snider's candidacy did not need to look at what he did in his final 5 seasons. They were inconsequential because he'd already put himself in the Hall during his peak.

It's my understanding that unless you're talking milestone numbers, peak is all you've got. Isn't that why Koufax is in? Isn't that why Dean is in? Isn't that why Catfish Hunter is in?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't know why you're still citing Snider's OPS+ figures. Look at all the numbers. That's like saying I want to dismiss Albert Belle's first two seasons, which I'm happy to do. Anyone evaluating Snider's candidacy did not need to look at what he did in his final 5 seasons. They were inconsequential because he'd already put himself in the Hall during his peak.

It's my understanding that unless you're talking milestone numbers, peak is all you've got. Isn't that Koufax is in? Isn't that why Dean is in? Isn't that Catfish Hunter is in?

What stat would you like to use? Snider didn't suck for an extra 604 games, as any honest look will tell you. OPS+ works to Belle's advantage, that stat is very friendly to him and his game. OPS+ is an effective measure of offensive production for power hitters that contextualizes it to time and place. I get that you don't like the result.

Is your moving argument now that Snider would be in the Hall if only his first 1,539 games counted? You can make that case if you'd like, it has nothing to do with anything I've said. I am not speaking of a hypothetical Snider but the actual Snider who was effective for like another third of Belle's career. It's a big gap.

I think it is obvious that peak is not everything a player has. Obviously Dean and Koufax and Hunter are elected for peak. Numerous other players are in for their total careers who didn't reach 3,000 hits or 500 bombs. Unless we want to redefine peak as being any year in which a player produced effectively, this is absurd.

[packs]

Absurd in what way? I think it's absurd to hold everyone to one standard, which the HOF obviously does not do. So, why is it then a problem to discuss peak when talking about specific players? As you said, there are already players in for their peak. Why is it taboo to discuss?

To answer your question, yes, I think Duke could have retired at 31 and been in the HOF without playing anymore seasons. He had a 22nd place MVP finish and one last all star appearance in the seasons after that, none of which I think tipped the scales for him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Absurd in what way? I think it's absurd to hold everyone to one standard, which the HOF obviously does not do. So, why is it then a problem to discuss peak when talking about specific players? As you said, there are already players in for their peak. Why is it taboo to discuss?

To answer your question, yes, I think Duke could have retired at 31 and been in the HOF without playing anymore seasons. He had a 22nd place MVP finish and one last all star appearance in the seasons after that, none of which I think tipped the scales for him.

You keep changing the argument. I did not say that we cannot consider peak, that I would vote for Belle quite obviously means I am valuing peak. What I actually said is that Peak is not the "only" thing, as you chose to assert, for players who did not hit a major milestone. Again, there are plenty of guys in the hall for their career performance who missed 3,000 hits or 500 homers.

I have never said you can't discuss peak or that it is some great taboo. Nowhere could a reasonable person see this bizarre claim in what was actually said. Please show this in the public transcript!

[packs]

You said peak is not everything a player has, but sometimes it is and that's what I've been saying. You can discuss peak in relation to HOF for players who only have their peak to discuss.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

You said peak is not everything a player has, but sometimes it is and that's what I've been saying. You can discuss peak in relation to HOF for players who only have their peak to discuss.

Yes. I said it is not everything. I cannot fathom why you would read that as "peak is nothing".

Sure, you can discuss peak however you want, or in relation to HOF players who only have peak.

Sounds like we finally agree on the abundantly obvious fact that Belle has a very short career and is a peak only guy. Yay.