Hall of Fame Ballot Announced

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

Is Ortiz the only one who is in who had some chemical enhancement?

I thought Rickey was accused of also being on the sauce. And probably my paisan Piazza too.

But maybe the case for Ortiz being on something is a bit more obvious?

Question 1 is, of course, impossible for me to know. I can’t divine or know every action every player has taken in their life. I use a reasonable evidentiary basis as any reasonable person would.

Piazza has been accused. I don’t know about Rickey. Pudge I suspect probably did use. Bagwell has had suspicion. Ortiz though, failed a test unlike Bonds (who the evidence is for is common sense compelling) that the media got their hands on. That would seem to be reasonable evidence. He was the first one with real direct evidence to get in, and that event was just memory holed in the press as his much more accomplished peers were barred from admittance for the media darling to be shoveled in without any regard for consistency.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by G1911

Question 1 is, of course, impossible for me to know. I can’t divine or know every action every player has taken in their life. I use a reasonable evidentiary basis as any reasonable person would.

Piazza has been accused. I don’t know about Rickey. Pudge I suspect probably did use. Bagwell has had suspicion. Ortiz though, failed a test unlike Bonds (who the evidence is for is common sense compelling) that the media got their hands on. That would seem to be reasonable evidence. He was the first one with real direct evidence to get in, and that event was just memory holed in the press as his much more accomplished peers were barred from admittance for the media darling to be shoveled in without any regard for consistency.

I thought Canseco had accused Rickey in his book. Of course, we can debate how much weight to give to this source. But it's not nothing.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

I thought Canseco had accused Rickey in his book. Of course, we can debate how much weight to give to this source. But it's not nothing.

I don’t know, I think I read one of his books half way and threw it out for being nauseating gossip. Only Ortiz falls into this category, of material evidence and it being ignored. There is no evidence the writers have instituted a gossip standard, where any player someone has said something about are excluded. They have for guys for which there is compelling evidence like failed tests, their plugs testimony in court, order records, etc. That is what has kept a long list of names out, and for which this clear standard was ignored to induct a person they liked.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don’t know, I think I read one of his books half way and threw it out for being nauseating gossip. Only Ortiz falls into this category, of material evidence and it being ignored. There is no evidence the writers have instituted a gossip standard, where any player someone has said something about are excluded. They have for guys for which there is compelling evidence like failed tests, their plugs testimony in court, order records, etc. That is what has kept a long list of names out, and for which this clear standard was ignored to induct a person they liked.

Gotcha.

I guess there's also some question about the list that Ortiz was on, since it was never made public, right? And his being on that list was in some ways a bit of gossip?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by raulus

Gotcha.

I guess there's also some question about the list that Ortiz was on, since it was never made public, right? And his being on that list was in some ways a bit of gossip?

It wasn't supposed to be public, but as these things usually go, the media got their hands on the list.

If we adopted a standard where this doesn't count because it wasn't intended to be public, well, most things that happen and get caught wouldn't be admissible. Clemens order receipts and Bonds' private dealings with his trainer/drug supplier weren't supposed to be public either. And yet here we are.

[GeoPoto]

It not only wasn't intended to be public, but Manfred has also said it likely wasn't entirely accurate, because it wasn't fully vetted. It served its purpose as anecdotal information but wasn't managed and adjudicated the way it would have been if it was expected to be used as evidence against a specific player.

Originally Posted by G1911

It wasn't supposed to be public, but as these things usually go, the media got their hands on the list.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

It not only wasn't intended to be public, but Manfred has also said it likely wasn't entirely accurate, because it wasn't fully vetted. It served its purpose as anecdotal information but wasn't managed and adjudicated the way it would have been if it was expected to be used as evidence against a specific player.

Of course Manfred said that, he had too because that was the deal that was agreed to and got the Players to take tests in the first place. MLB cannot "fully vet" and certify them without breaking the agreement. It's an appeal to an impossibility, like when classified intel is leaked and the CIA won't confirm it.

If this test is anecdotal, then so is the case against Clemens that relies mostly on others testimony without any failed test or direct evidence. This argument just shifts the double standard to be a different double standard, not a not double standard.

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by raulus

I thought Canseco had accused Rickey in his book. Of course, we can debate how much weight to give to this source. But it's not nothing.

Jose was never the same after that ball bounced off his noggin over the fence.

[kkkkandp]

BTW - I would like to see Rickey Henderson get in because he is the King of Stolen Bases....and just so he can give his entire acceptance speech in the third person.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

BTW - I would like to see Rickey Henderson get in because he is the King of Stolen Bases....and just so he can give his entire acceptance speech in the third person.

You're joking, right?

Check out YouTube for his acceptance speech. It's a thing of beauty.

"I would like to thanks the member of the Halls of Fame..."

"...and 33 steal!"

"...the San Diego Padre!"

"I guess Moms do knows best!"

Just remember, this guy is somehow in possession of one of the most brilliant baseball minds in history! No wonder he kept playing into his 50's; it's the only world where he felt comfortable.

[kkkkandp]

Yes, joking. He dropped character.

He was way more entertaining when he spoke in the third person!

[G1911]

facepalm.jpg

[Misunderestimated]

Maybe I missed, it but does anyone know the identities of the voters for this one ?
Is it a meeting where the voters get together, or do they just cast ballots without formal communications ?

[Mike D.]

I wrote an article on the candidates and their cards, if anyone is interested:

Investing In The Contemporary Baseball Era Hall of Fame Candidates

[rtsjr12534]

Mattingly dont know why people think he is a hofer just because he played for the yankees. lot more players belong in there before him.

dave parker belongs in wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more then him

[Jersey City Giants]

No Roidboys.

Can't seriously argue any of the others after they let Baines in.

[Fred]

Copied directly from the BBWAA web site regarding HOF election requirements:

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I can already hear it - then how did "so and so" get in? Perhaps that person was voted in at a time when "standards" regarding the criteria were not under the proverbial microscope as they are today.

I think what hurts a lot of PED users was the denial and outright lying they did. When testifying to congress about PED use, isn't it not a good thing when you get caught in that lie? If they start letting PED users in, then they should start with McGwire, because at least he told the truth about his PED use.

The one criteria each of the PED users qualifies for is "the players record". Each of those PED users have great stats they probably would not have achieved without the PEDs. In some cases like Bonds and Clemens, it's a shame because those guys were on track to have great careers without the PEDs.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

BTW - I would like to see Rickey Henderson get in because he is the King of Stolen Bases....and just so he can give his entire acceptance speech in the third person.

Rickey is in, but now that you mention it, I feel like looking for his induction speech on Youtube to see if he was being Rickey during the speech.

Maybe in the future there will be a change for PED users.

Rafael looked pretty stupid lying to congress about his "alleged" steroid use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAxo4pCITRM

The denials from the abusers probably doesn't sit well with the BB writers. I'm not a Bonds fan, but if he didn't use PEDs, he probably would have been a HOFer with the raw talent he had. I just don't get how those guys could deny the use when their bodies were pretty much saying "yeah, I use PEDs".

One PED user was honest about it. McGwire, at least, admitted to PED use and didn't deny it like the others. And he's not in the HOF.