Bob Feller Career

[Touch'EmAll]

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

Out of interest, where do you rank Ryan?

[Touch'EmAll]

higher than most on net54

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James if memory serves had Feller 12 (counting Negro Leagues) and Ryan 24th. I would think most would have them closer together.

[Touch'EmAll]

I dug out my old Bill James Historical Abstract, printed in 1988. Yes, I know its not the most current.

Of the pitchers on his "100 Greatest Players of this Century", he has Feller #8 Career Value behind (in order): Grove, Spahn, W. Johnson, Cy Young, Matty, Seaver, G.C. Alexander, then Bob Feller.

Does not appear Bill James included what may have been for Fellers Military years missed.

Since 1988, I acknowledge pitchers such as Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro would have an impact on rankings.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

I dug out my old Bill James Historical Abstract, printed in 1988. Yes, I know its not the most current.

Of the pitchers on his "100 Greatest Players of this Century", he has Feller #8 Career Value behind (in order): Grove, Spahn, W. Johnson, Cy Young, Matty, Seaver, G.C. Alexander, then Bob Feller.

Does not appear Bill James included what may have been for Fellers Military years missed.

Since 1988, I acknowledge pitchers such as Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro would have an impact on rankings.

I am thinking of the 2003 volume. He included Paige in that one. I think he had Gibson ahead of Feller, and I forget who else. Probably by that time Clemens.

[ramram]

I've got this 1935 Iowa State Amateur Baseball Tournament scorebook featuring 16 year old Bob Feller. This was the tournament at which Feller was "found" by superscout Cy Slapnicka. He was signed shortly thereafter. The scorebook was the official scorer's book kept by the Iowa Amateur Athletic Association's State Chairman Joe Campbell. Feller's team of farm boys ended up winning the tournament against many of the well sponsored city boys. Feller was probably 8 - 10 years younger than most of the participants.

In the tournament, Feller pitched 27 1/3 innings, had 49 strikeouts and gave up 14 hits, 10 walks, 4 runs (1 earned run). The only earned run was on a home run. In the last two days of the tournament, Feller pitched both complete games and likely threw over 300 pitches!

Feller Scorebook 3.jpg

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by ramram

I've got this 1935 Iowa State Amateur Baseball Tournament scorebook featuring 16 year old Bob Feller. This was the tournament at which Feller was "found" by superscout Cy Slapnicka. He was signed shortly thereafter.

And guess who was managing Cleveland when they signed him, in one of the odd twists of their careers?

[G1911]

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

[jingram058]

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

And if he wasn't, he was way ahead of the rest of the country.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

And if he wasn't, he was way ahead of the rest of the country.

I think it was George F. Will who made the point that while Mays might not have had to endure some of the outright racism Robinson did, he was still the target of a more subtle racism; for example, the press apparently was fond of referring to Mays' childlike enthusiasm for the game. Also, Life Magazine (or maybe Time) apparently created a shitstorm by putting Larraine Day on the cover with one arm around Leo (her husband) and the other around Willie.

One more about Willie and the 50s, there was a hit song by the Treniers about him, it's actually a good song but listening to the lyrics from today's POV is just painful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

Certainly I think it is more likely he would have performed well than not. Pitcher arm's dying is not some weird and unusual thing though; it happens all the time and to the majority of pitchers. Give him an extra thousand innings or so and the odds are not tiny. This, what I think is more likely than another scenario, though, is irrelevant. We do not know what would have happened because we are not omniscient. When we look at the numbers to try to determine who had the best MLB careers (what is almost always actually meant when we say "best"), we can only evaluate actual reality, the things that we know have actually happened or the things that it would be more reasonable to think happened than to think that they did not happen. Any argument placing Feller in the top 10 relies on fanfiction, giving credit for years which did not happen, and assuming the best possible outcome of these fictional events in his favor. If the question is "who are your top 10 MLB pitchers who bad luck and for whom events probably most hurt the career value of?", Feller may be a good candidate.

I like Feller. But I see no reasonable way to give credit for years that did not happen. If I make up fantasy years for one player, I can do it for any of them. By the same logic I can conclude the immensely talented Bobby Bonds is a top 10. If things had just gone differently for X, if X had just done things a little different, if luck had been with X, X could have been the best. If only. It's true for all of us, really. If I'd just done X at Y time, I'd be the big winner at Z. If X had never happened to me and my situation would be different, I'd be #1. But reality doesn't work that way.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

Huge Feller fan here, ever since meeting him at age 11 outside of the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. My dad pointed him out and sent me with a ball and pen in his direction.
I didn't realize until after I looked at the signature who he was, and it remains a great childhood memory.

I have him as #11 on my list of greatest pitchers, but personally found it much harder to make that list than the outfield players.

Also, pulled these mocked-up stats from an old Net54 thread that represented the best effort to fill in the blanks for military service in WWII.

My Feller focus is going strong for the last 10 years or so. There are a couple of rare cards that are going to be the end of me trying to complete the Master Set, I'm afraid.
And as Peter said, every thread needs a card -- or more.
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[Touch'EmAll]

Nice cards, indeed !