Bob Feller Career

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

Feller's case always gets me thinking about Ted Williams. Both lost prime years due to the war. How much higher in the key rankings would they have climbed if they hadn't lost those years to serving the greater good? Williams was probably my favorite player that I never actually saw play in live games at a stadium and on TV. Feller may be one of my two favorite pitchers that I never saw play in live games at a stadium or on TV. Feller may have produced numbers putting him squarely in the top 10 all time. I believe Williams may have firmly established himself as the best hitter of all time. Ahh, what might have been!

As for some folks being jaded by Feller being ubiquitious in the hobby, that's hard to fathom. Much of the money he raised by signing autographs helped support his 2-room museum in Van Meter (which was fantastic by the way) and which helped draw people to the city and supported a few people. When I purchased my autographed material the items were extremely reasonably priced. I don't care about scarcity of the autographs. I just want them at a cost that won't break my bank. And Feller's autograph was the autograph of a superstar HOFer that I wanted and still cherish, even though I know if won't help fund my retirement!

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well. Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

[ClementeFanOh]

I'll also point out these factoids:

1) Feller was 266-162 in wins over his career, 104 over .500. By
comparison, Tom Seaver was at 106 (and some of you love to gush
over Seaver).

2) Although Feller would have topped 300 wins for a career with war years
converted into baseball years, his 266 was still outstanding.

3) No less an authority than Ted Williams himself, called Feller the best
pitcher he ever faced. Since Williams was an actual warrior instead of a
keyboard one, I think I'll trust his evaluation.

4) No-hitters most certainly are a fine metric for determining a pitcher's
quality, when placed in context- which I (and others) have done. Feller
threw his 3(!) over an 11 year time span, which of course is a much
longer time than many pitchers are able to sustain in the first place.

Short version is any team would gladly have taken Feller in their rotation-
any team. That's a great pitcher (and no, I'm not a Cleveland fan or a
Feller collector). Trent King

[rats60]

Originally Posted by BobC

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well.Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

The bolded is not true. Spahn pitched 4 games in the majors in 1942 at age 21 and was sent back to the minors. Spahn won zero games and had 5.74 ERA in the majors. At the A level, he pitched 33 games going 17-12 with a 1.96 ERA. Spahn went to the military the next year.

Spahn has said the best thing for his major league career was serving in the military. It gave him a chance to mature and he was better equipped to pitch in the majors when he returned at age 25. Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 after hitting .406 in 1941. Feller finished 3rd in MVP voting behind DiMaggio and Williams in 1941 before enlisting. Williams and Feller lost prime years to WWII service. Spahn did not. It is only speculation how much Spahn would have even pitched in the majors in 1943-1945 given his 1942 performance.

[jingram058]

Signed MCI Ambassadors of Baseball card, USS Independence CV-62, 1993 I believe. Johnny Vander Meer also, post card size photo.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by rats60

The bolded is not true. Spahn pitched 4 games in the majors in 1942 at age 21 and was sent back to the minors. Spahn won zero games and had 5.74 ERA in the majors. At the A level, he pitched 33 games going 17-12 with a 1.96 ERA. Spahn went to the military the next year.

Spahn has said the best thing for his major league career was serving in the military. It gave him a chance to mature and he was better equipped to pitch in the majors when he returned at age 25. Ted Williams won the triple crown in 1942 after hitting .406 in 1941. Feller finished 3rd in MVP voting behind DiMaggio and Williams in 1941 before enlisting. Williams and Feller lost prime years to WWII service. Spahn did not. It is only speculation how much Spahn would have even pitched in the majors in 1943-1945 given his 1942 performance.

Rats, thank you, I stand somewhat corrected. I forgot about the stint back to the minors. And I had heard somewhere about Spahn crediting his military service for helping his career as well. But something tells me that because of the type of person he was, and with the talent and ability he had, he would have gotten it figured out long before he turned 25 and been a star pitcher for a few more years in his career had he not lost the years he did. And with 363 career wins and 2,583 career strike outs otherwise, he didn't need 3 or 4 superstar level seasons to reach those 400 win, 3,000 strikeout plateaus.

And that partially missed fourth season I incorrectly attributed to his being in the service, you can probably still count that as he shouldn't have missed it because it is a known fact that in '42 Spahn got into it with then Braves manager Casey Stengel who had ordered him to intentionally throw at a batter, Pee Wee Reese, and in an exhibition game no less. And as I mentioned, being the kind of person he was, Spahn refused to intentionally throw at a batter, especially in an exhibition game, and for that Stengel sent him back to the minors. I believe Stengel was even quoted as admitting at one time much later on that that was the worst managing mistake that he ever made. So the correct statement should be Spahn missed three full seasons to WWII, and much of a fourth to Casey Stengel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

You can add Warren Spahn to that list with Feller and Williams as well. Spahn had just come onto the Braves team in 1942, and pitched in only four games before going off to the war. He didn't pitch again till he came back in 1946. But what Spahn and Williams did was play long enough to both reach superstar plateaus for their positions. Spahn had over 300 wins and Williams over 500 home runs. Meanwhile, Feller missed both the 300 wins and 3,000 strikeouts milestones for pitchers, both of which he would have probably easily reached had he not served during the war. And that's why I said in an earlier thread he probably got hurt the most of any ballplayer because of the time missed in the war.

What's interesting for Spahn is that had he not missed almost four seasons to WWII, he would easily have reached 400 wins, and probably had over 3,000 strikeouts as well.

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars. Had he not gone off to fight, he most likely would have gone from #7 to #1 on the all-time career offensive WAR list, surpassing both Ruth and Cobb, easily top 3,000 career hits and actually go towards 4,000, likely take the all-time MLB walks record from Barry Bonds, easily top 600 home runs and probably close in on 700, likely take the all-time RBI crown from Aaron, and the all-time runs scored record from Henderson, while probably keeping his all-time OBP record. And lord knows what all other records could have become his, or if he could have had a 3rd batting triple crown (or even more), or possibly even another .400 average season.

Lot of what ifs for these guys who went off to war.

Not that DiMaggio would have threatened any milestones, but he missed three prime years.

[jingram058]

DiMaggio will be remembered for hitting consecutively in 56 games, as well he should be, even by this generation. 1941 is looked on by historians for two almost incomprehensible milestones...those 56 consecutive games, and IMO more importantly, Ted Williams' .406 batting average. DiMaggio flirted with .400 in 1939, winding up at .381. Several others have flirted with it since, only to falter in the end, showing just how hard it is to do. I do not see it happening even more so today because of specialized pitching being what it is; starting, middle, late and closing. If DiMaggio had those 3 years, who knows, but I doubt it.

[Tomi]

Very impressive that Dimaggio had 8 more lifetime strikeouts than homeruns. Sad that players today will strikeouts more in 2 seasons than Dimaggio in his career.

[Yoda]

I once took a beloved '54 Bowman to a show for Bob to sign. When my turn came, he looked up and said, "Oh, the water cooler shot, one of my favorites."
Since he seemed in a very relaxed mood, I asked him if Herb Score was ever as fast as he was. He gave me a wink and replied, "Only in Spring Training." A sacred memory.

[Kzoo]

When Bob signed this for me a couple years before his passing, his response was 'Oh wow, it's an original one'. Everybody else at the small local show was getting balls and 8x10s signed.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not that DiMaggio would have threatened any milestones, but he missed three prime years.

Very true, and not to take away anything from DiMaggio at all, but he played a much shorter overall career than Feller, Spahn, and Williams. The closest was Feller, who played 18 seasons to DiMaggio's 13 season career, and that's counting the very partial 1945 season for Feller as one of those 18.

And even if you add in the average of three years worth of hits and home runs from his best and most productive seasons, it looks like DiMaggio's still going to come up short in the 3,000 hit - 500 home run categories. And nothing else in his stats jumps out to me as being milestone reaching or all-time record worthy by simply adding three more years worth of numbers. He doesn't/didn't need anything else though, he already had the hitting streak AND he played for the Yankees. DiMaggio had all the publicity and hype he could ever need and/or want. And yet, he still went beyond all that with the icing on his cake................he was married to Marilyn Monroe!

I put that on somewhat of a par with Verlander. You guys had your other thread talking about how dismal Verlander's World Series record is, and with that opening game loss to Philly the other night he's now sporting an 0-6 WS pitching record, with the highest WS starting pitcher ERA of all time, right? Well, if I was Verlander, I probably couldn't care less, and upon hearing/reading all the negativity directed at me I'd likely just respond "Screw you!", because at the end of the day I get to go home to my wife, Kate Upton, and............................................... ............

I'll leave it to you all to finish that last sentence however you like.

[Peter_Spaeth]

He didn't get the loss though. But he definitely was not in good form. It's weird because his career playoff record overall isn't that bad, just the WS.

Wherever he ends up in wins, given trends no pitcher may ever get more, at least until the game reverts back to how it was.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He didn't get the loss though. But he definitely was not in good form. It's weird because his career playoff record overall isn't that bad, just the WS.

Wherever he ends up in wins, given trends no pitcher may ever get more, at least until the game reverts back to how it was.

Didn't see he may not have been credited with the loss, wasn't watching the game, but knew he certainly didn't get the win. Still highest ever ERA though, right?

So more importantly, how'd you finish that last line?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Didn't see he may not have been credited with the loss, wasn't watching the game, but knew he certainly didn't get the win. Still highest ever ERA though, right?

So more importantly, how'd you finish that last line?

I will decline the invitation to make a sexist comment. He'll go home, wait for the phone to ring congratulating him on the Cy Young award, and hang with his kids.

[ClementeFanOh]

And it's "Short Attention Span Theater" again. Thanks PeterSpaeth and
BobC, you are the very image of predictability. Feel free to rip away and
further distance the thread from it's actual intent. Trent King

[jethrod3]

Originally Posted by BobC

And for Williams it is even possibly more insane. Unlike Feller and Spahn, Williams played the entire 1942 season, and only missed 3 seasons to WWII, not the almost 4 seasons that Feller and Spahn lost. However, what a lot of people forget, or never knew to begin with, was that Williams went back into the service during the Korean War. He only played in 6 games in the beginning of the 1952 season before heading off to the Korean War, and came back in late 1953 to play in 37 games to finish out that season. So, Williams basically lost almost 5 years fighting in wars.

I agree. He left the game certainly with his name in the argument for greatest hitter ever, and had he played during those missed years and stayed healthy, it's likely that he would have been at the top or very near the top of ALL of the categories you mentioned. I've read a couple of Williams biographies. He was not a perfect man, but major props to him for re-enlisting. That was a sacrifice that was above and beyond the call of duty for all but a few players of their day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

[bbcard1]

Gotta share my Feller story...in the late 1970s...I'd guess 1978...he came to Watt Powell Park in Charleston WV. For the sum of $2 you could take a cut off Rapid Robert...remember he had to be in his 60s then. All proceeds benefitted the American Cancer Society. It was the pregame to a minor league baseball game. I blooped a single over second finishing 1-1 against hall of famers. After he took a shower and signed autographs for anyone who wanted.

Late in his life he was one of the first victims of cancel culture that I recall. He said something that was probably slightly behind the time and some POS announcer accused him of being a racist. I don't think any serious study of Feller's life would support that.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

Gotta share my Feller story...in the late 1970s...I'd guess 1978...he came to Watt Powell Park in Charleston WV. For the sum of $2 you could take a cut off Rapid Robert...remember he had to be in his 60s then. All proceeds benefitted the American Cancer Society. It was the pregame to a minor league baseball game. I blooped a single over second finishing 1-1 against hall of famers. After he took a shower and signed autographs for anyone who wanted.

Late in his life he was one of the first victims of cancel culture that I recall. He said something that was probably slightly behind the time and some POS announcer accused him of being a racist. I don't think any serious study of Feller's life would support that.

Yes, don't know the details of that particular incident/story, but find it highly doubtful Feller would ever deliberately and intentionally make racist comments. In fact, Feller was the main force after the war behind the 1946 barnstorming and exhibition game tour where a white, ML all-star team with the likes of himself, Musial, Rizzuto, and others went across the country right after the WS ended and played 35 games over 27 days in 17 different states across the country and British Columbia. Their opponent was a team of Negro League All-Stars headed by Satchell Paige, and the likes of Buck O'Neil, Quincy Trouppe, Hank Thompson, and others. And to make it all work, Feller did something else unprecedented and never done in baseball before. Feller charted two DC-3 planes to fly everyone to all the games for the whole barnstorming tour. He even had them paint "Bob Feller's All-Stars" on the outside of the planes. Apparently the tour was a huge success, everyone shared in the profits, and supposedly most everyone made more in that one month than they'd made over the entire baseball season that year. All the players apparently got along great, and Feller referred to and thought of the Negro League players as friends. Doesn't sound or come across as a racist type person to me.

Oh, and because the chartered planes and constant flying were not things ML teams were doing yet, at this time MLB baseball travel was still primarily by train, some team owners were scared and didn't want to risk their star players getting injured or killed in a plane crash. As a result, supposedly Hal Newhouser and Ted Williams were each paid $10,000 by their respective team owners to not go on the tour. Always thought that a bit ironic and funny in Williams' case as he served as a pilot in WWII and the Korean War.

This is another thing that could also be posted in the "It only ever happened once........" thread over in the Water Cooler - All Sports Talk forum.

[Yoda]

Forgive me if the subject has already been hashed over, but what were Ruth's batting stats when he pitched for Boston?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Forgive me if the subject has already been hashed over, but what were Ruth's batting stats when he pitched for Boston?

First off John, did you know that when asked about facing all other pitchers, Ted Williams said Allie Reynolds makes him start thinking about facing him 24 hours before he does so, but that Bob Feller had him thinking about facing him a full three days before he actually did. Feller was that good and got into his head that much more than any other pitcher he ever faced apparently.

And now that I've fulfilled my obligation to discuss Bob Feller and his career in some manner in this post, I can now not be rude and respond to your question, brought up from earlier conversations in this thread surrounding some discourse others may feel is inappropriately off-topic, whatever their warped, myopic or mistaken reasoning.

For Ruth, he played his first six seasons in Boston, primarily as a pitcher. During that time his batting stats were as follows:

G 391
PA 1332
AB 1110
R 202
H 342
2B 82
3B 30
HR 49
RBI 224
SB 13
CS 0
BB 190
SO 184
BA .308
OBP .413
SLG .568

And his offensive WAR just from batting over these six seasons with Boston was 19.2, with the biggest contribution coming in his last year in Boston, 1919, when he played in a total of 130 games that year, only appearing in 17 of those games as a pitcher, and putting up a 9.1 WAR. Commensurately for pitching, for those same six seasons he put up a pitching WAR of 20.5, with 1916 being his best when he posted an 8.8 pitching WAR.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by BobC

Yes, don't know the details of that particular incident/story, but find it highly doubtful Feller would ever deliberately and intentionally make racist comments. In fact, Feller was the main force after the war behind the 1946 barnstorming and exhibition game tour where a white, ML all-star team with the likes of himself, Musial, Rizzuto, and others went across the country right after the WS ended and played 35 games over 27 days in 17 different states across the country and British Columbia. Their opponent was a team of Negro League All-Stars headed by Satchell Paige, and the likes of Buck O'Neil, Quincy Trouppe, Hank Thompson, and others. And to make it all work, Feller did something else unprecedented and never done in baseball before. Feller charted two DC-3 planes to fly everyone to all the games for the whole barnstorming tour. He even had them paint "Bob Feller's All-Stars" on the outside of the planes. Apparently the tour was a huge success, everyone shared in the profits, and supposedly most everyone made more in that one month than they'd made over the entire baseball season that year. All the players apparently got along great, and Feller referred to and thought of the Negro League players as friend. Doesn't sound or come across as a racist type person to me.

Oh, and because the chartered planes and constant flying were not things ML teams were doing yet, at this time MLB baseball travel was still primarily by train, some team owners were scared and didn't want to risk their star players getting injured or killed in a plane crash. As a result, supposedly Hal Newhouser and Ted Williams were each paid $10,000 by their respective team owners to not go on the tour. Always thought that a bit ironic and funny in Williams' case as he served as a pilot in WWII and the Korean War.

This is another thing that could also be posted in the "It only ever happened once........" thread over in the Water Cooler - All Sports Talk forum.

Feller was doing a phone interview around 2005 & passed a comment about Caribbean players not knowing the rules. The interviewer pressed him for examples but Feller wouldn't or couldn't elaborate. Things became contentious & Feller threatened to hang up whereupon the interviewer said something like "Go ahead you racist!".

[BobC]

Originally Posted by howard38

Feller was doing a phone interview around 2005 & passed a comment about Caribbean players not knowing the rules. The interviewer pressed him for examples but Feller wouldn't or couldn't elaborate. Things became contentious & Feller threatened to hang up whereupon the interviewer said something like "Go ahead you racist!".

Was not aware of and never heard that before. If anything, not sure how that is necessarily considered racist either. I know that back in his day Feller wanted to play Winter ball in Cuba at one point I believe, and apparently got into it with then baseball commissioner Happy Chandler about a rule supposedly not allowing US ML ballplayers to play in Cuba, but Latin/Carribean ML ballplayers could. That is the only questionable Latin/Carribean player situation I've ever heard of him being involved with.

For the heck of it, did a little online searching and found some stuff on the issue after all. Seems he was doing a live radio interview over the phone at 86 years of age with someone on a small local radio station in Iowa I believe, possibly trying to make a name for themself and generate ratings. Guessing Feller came across as rude/obnoxious/opinionated because the a--hole interviewing him either wouldn't shut up and let him finish, or just pushed what Feller was possibly not saying in the nicest, sweetest, and most kiss-ass PC way possible was therefore proof he was racist. Seems Feller said Latin players first coming here didn't know or understand all the rules and that not speaking good English maybe didn't help in their understanding, or something along those lines. Seems to me Feller was more or less merely stating facts about differences between MLB rules and exactly how they play baseball here in the states, and then how that can differ with the way the game's played in other parts of the world, and that language issues and misunderstandings can further complicate those differences and learning. I can understand Feller being pissed if this guy then tried pushing him as a racist.

And another thing many may not know about Feller, in 1956 he became the inaugural President of the Major League Baseball Players Association, a position in which he represented all ML players of all ethnicities. I somehow doubt he would have been elected to such a position if he actually was a racist.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by howard38

Feller was doing a phone interview around 2005 & passed a comment about Caribbean players not knowing the rules. The interviewer pressed him for examples but Feller wouldn't or couldn't elaborate. Things became contentious & Feller threatened to hang up whereupon the interviewer said something like "Go ahead you racist!".

On Larry Doby's first day in the Major Leagues with the Indians, several teammates refused to shake Doby's hand. Bob Feller is believed to be one of those teammates.

However, in an interview with Larry Doby in 1979, Doby says that Feller changed for the better, even if it took him some time (starting at 1:30:19).
https://nunncenter.net/ohms-spokedb/...han068_ohm.xml

I think the accusations some have made in the press that Feller was racist are overblown.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Seven

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

If there is any statistical study that has ever been done showing anyone but Ruth as #1, I have never seen or heard of it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Starting his age 24 season, Ruth had ..... wait for it .... 20 HR.

[Mozzie22]

Bob Feller faced Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio and Mickey Mantle. I asked him once at a card show who he disliked facing the most of the three. He said Dimaggio had the best numbers against him, Mantle wasn't worrisome and Gehrig "scared the hell out of me!" Couldn't help but laugh when he said that.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Seven

Ruth's numbers will forever wow me, and what's even more absurd is that we were arguably robbed of an even better career if he started out playing a position instead of pitching.

If he'd started out as a position player, they probably would have made him change into the small ball hitter that everyone else was at the time. So if the focus hadn't been on his pitching at first instead, he may never have gotten the chance to become "the Babe".

[Touch'EmAll]

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

Out of interest, where do you rank Ryan?

[Touch'EmAll]

higher than most on net54

[G1911]

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

[jingram058]

Bob Feller was no racist, and that's the end of it. "Dr. Jones, it's time to ask yourself what you believe."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I don't see how one we can give credit for events which did not happen, only those which did. I can't get him close to the top 10 because I don't see how we can use seasons that did not happen to move him up, or deduct seasons that did actually happen from others.

The best pitcher may be some guy who never made it into the majors. Maybe it was some farm kid in 1877 who chose to become a grocer instead. Maybe it was some guy who never left the sandlots. When we are ranking and talking about the best, what we are really saying and doing is judging the best careers in MLB, because that's the highest level of competition there has been and presents a reasonable dataset, counting those we can reasonably evaluate by some measure beyond the emotional. Could Feller have been a top 10 possible talent? Maybe. Would Feller rank higher if he hadn't missed 4 years? Quite possibly. He might also have suffered a severe injury in 1943 and been out of baseball and a footnote today. One can't really evaluate that which did not happen to give extra points to selected people. I know this is an unpopular and bummer of a view, but I just don't see a way to do it within the confines of reason.

Yes, but while anything is possible, some outcomes are far more probable than others, no? Don't you think the chances he would have performed at a similar level are much higher than that he would have sustained a career ending injury? I wouldn't go so far as to simply credit anyone with numbers for hypothetical seasons, but I think at some level one can consider the phenomenon in one's assessment.

[ZiggerZagger]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Cruising this thread seeing all time rankings mentioned 10-15th, 25th, 29th, 34th, 51st. Without analyzing the numbers heavily, I would rank him higher than most, like top 10-12.

The years he missed in his prime are mega huge, more so for a pitcher than a hitter. Instead of trying to add in for what he missed, how about a different angle. Take several top 15 pitchers of all time, now subtract the years Feller missed from their records and see where that leaves them for career stats.

From the Society for American Baseball Research: "Lost almost 4 full seasons in his prime. Both Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio called him the best pitcher they ever faced. He was the most dominant pitcher of his era."

I am now thinking top 10 for Feller. But then again, I love the sheer awe of elite power pitchers - no other players I would rather see with my own time and money.

Huge Feller fan here, ever since meeting him at age 11 outside of the old Cleveland Municipal Stadium. My dad pointed him out and sent me with a ball and pen in his direction.
I didn't realize until after I looked at the signature who he was, and it remains a great childhood memory.

I have him as #11 on my list of greatest pitchers, but personally found it much harder to make that list than the outfield players.

Also, pulled these mocked-up stats from an old Net54 thread that represented the best effort to fill in the blanks for military service in WWII.

My Feller focus is going strong for the last 10 years or so. There are a couple of rare cards that are going to be the end of me trying to complete the Master Set, I'm afraid.
And as Peter said, every thread needs a card -- or more.
|

[Touch'EmAll]

Nice cards, indeed !

[Bigdaddy]

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

+1 on that. Well said.

[Peter_Spaeth]

For 10 points, who did Ted fly half his missions with in Korea?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

Williams was drafted in January 1942, but appealed to the draft board and got himself reclassified so he wouldn't have to go. It was a public scandal at the time and some sponsors dropped him. He joined the Navy Reserve in May 1942 after the team and Williams saw the writing on the wall. He trained as an aviator and got a commission as a second lieutenant but did not see a combat assignment or deployment. He was released from duty January 1946, but remained on the inactive reserve list. Williams apparently had a deal, or believed he did, where he would never have to actually serve again in exchange for the military being allowed to use his name for recruitment and public relations. He was surprised by his January 1952 call-up for Korea, which was apparently a mistake meant for a different Ted Williams on the list. In Korea he was actively deployed and flew 39 combat missions. No easy assignment.

https://www.historynet.com/ted-williams/

It doesn't seem Williams had any desire to serve, delayed his entry in WWII as long as practicable, and either arranged a deal or thought he had such a deal that he would not in future have to see any real duty either. Once he had to go, he served with courage. This is not a criticism, the entire reason that there was a draft is, of course, that not enough people were willing to sign up and go get shot at. I sure wouldn't. But what he did and what Feller did are very different, and I'm not sure there's any reason in the historical record to think Williams was happy to go and made the choice to do so. Feller was eligible for deferment as well, but instead of using that he enlisted within 48 hours of Pearl Harbor and before it was entirely clear a whole generation was going to be forced under duress to go.

If we assign moral points, Feller gets a lot of 'em.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In an admittedly critical biography, I read that DiMaggio's military service basically consisted of playing ball and entertaining generals.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

As we sit at our keyboards discussing the 'what ifs' and missed years to to service and their place in the inner circle of baseball greatness, I'd bet that Bob and Ted would tell you that they'd make the same decision again to enlist given the circumstances.

That is what elevates them above just great ballplayers.

Uhhhhhh, Feller ENLISTED two days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, don't believe that was the case for Williams in WWII or the Korean War. Also, Feller could have qualified for deferment and not been subject to the draft and the war due to his father's health and eventual passing from brain cancer in January 1943. Also, Feller initially tried to become a fighter pilot, but failed required hearing tests. And after basic training and then being assigned as a physical education instructor at the Norfolk Naval Base, Feller requested transfer to serve in combat missions because as Feller put it he "wanted to do something besides standing around handing out balls and bats and making ball fields out of coral reefs."

Williams meanwhile was DRAFTED in January of 1942, and initially given a 1-A draft classification. But being his mother's sole means of support, he quickly filed for and received a change in his draft status to a 3-A classification and did not have to enter the service at that time. Williams received a lot of extremely negative public reaction because of this, and as a result Quaker Oats dropped Williams and no longer sponsored him. Eventually on May 22, 1942, Williams joined the Naval Reserve, but remained in the US and playing baseball for all of 1942 for what was to become his first Triple Crown season. He was then called up to active duty in 1943.

And because Williams had chosen the Naval Reserve instead of simply going into active service through the draft back in 1942, he was still technically in the reserves when the Korean War broke out. On January 9, 1952, his name was selected from the inactive reserve list to serve on active duty in the Korean War, for which Williams was livid at his having been recalled.

And as Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know the rest of the story."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Uhhhhhh, Feller ENLISTED two days after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, don't believe that was the case for Williams in WWII or the Korean War. Also, Feller could have qualified for deferment and not been subject to the draft and the war due to his father's health and eventual passing from brain cancer in January 1943. Also, Feller initially tried to become a fighter pilot, but failed required hearing tests. And after basic training and then being assigned as a physical education instructor at the Norfolk Naval Base, Feller requested transfer to serve in combat missions because as Feller put it he "wanted to do something besides standing around handing out balls and bats and making ball fields out of coral reefs."

Williams meanwhile was DRAFTED in January of 1942, and initially given a 1-A draft classification. But being his mother's sole means of support, he quickly filed for and received a change in his draft status to a 3-A classification and did not have to enter the service at that time. Williams received a lot of extremely negative public reaction because of this, and as a result Quaker Oats dropped Williams and no longer sponsored him. Eventually on May 22, 1942, Williams joined the Naval Reserve, but remained in the US and playing baseball for all of 1942 for what was to become his first Triple Crown season. He was then called up to active duty in 1943.

And because Williams had chosen the Naval Reserve instead of simply going into active service through the draft back in 1942, he was still technically in the reserves when the Korean War broke out. On January 9, 1952, his name was selected from the inactive reserve list to serve on active duty in the Korean War, for which Williams was livid at his having been recalled.

And as Paul Harvey would say, "Now you know the rest of the story."

This was all or nearly all pointed out already in post 101.

[Snowman]

He was pretty dominant. He led they league in strikeouts every year from the age of 19 to 29 except for the years he lost to the war. But he struggled with control, and he also benefited from being in a pitcher's park his entire career (both league park 2 and Cleveland stadium were pitchers parks). He's a legit first ballot HOFer, but he's not in my top 10. Probably not even in my top 20. Maybe 25th or so for me? He was like an earlier version of Nolan Ryan without the longevity.

Here's my 52. Probably my favorite card of his that I own.

[Leon]

Thom McAn

[Angyale]

Photo by Van Oyen

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I've seen this estimate.

The statisticians tell us that Williams, who was obsessed with personal achievements, would have compiled a .342 career average, 3,452 hits, 2,380 RBI and 663 home runs had he played without war-time interruption.

I think that's still second to Ruth -- God would have finished second to Ruth -- but obviously remarkable.

Don't disagree, but then go look at their career WAR. Different sites seem to always have slightly different figures and exact ways they're calculating it, but if you look at them just for offensive WAR, Williams would likely just have topped Ruth if he hadn't missed those five years. But then add on Ruth's pitching WAR also and now he's back on top for total WAR over even Williams then. And even if looking just at offensive WAR, it would have taken Willams several more seasons than Ruth to just catch and equal him, still leaving Ruth in the top spot IMO, just Williams looking a lot closer maybe.

Replace Ruth's first 4-5 years as primarily a pitcher for the Red Sox, and back out the approximately 20.0 pitching WAR he generated during that time, and instead replace it with 4-5 years worth of his average offensive WAR, and you're likely looking at a career WAR for Ruth of 200.0 or better, even farther beyond what anyone else ever put up.

My one earlier comment about Williams possibly catching and besting Ruth is still true in regard to just offensive WAR, but that would primarily be due to Williams having played longer, not necessarily better, than Ruth.

And I still hate and don't fully understand a lot of these modern metrics and statistics, but because so many worship and quote them like they're gospel, one is forced to use or repeat them in conversations like this occasionally.