Hey, pennant guys

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Right on! I knew you'd have some answers for us from the football side of the house.

Is this Bills pennant full size? Marc's 1964 catalogue suggests that Keezer's/American Knitwear's offering was limited solely to 5" x 12" minis. (No mention of any other sizes.)

Yes...Full size. I can send exact measurements and a pic of the stamp when I get home this weekend. I didn't compare the stamp to baseball Keezers I have, but at first glance it looks just like the baseball stamp. Not sure if the stamp evolved over the years.

Marc...Your large Oilers and my Bills have the same stiff non-"felt" tassels.

[bocca001]

That strange tassel material (and sometimes spines) seems to suggest that they came from the same era, probably early 1960s.

Gary- the baseball Keezer ones I have been posting (e.g., White Sox) are full size.

[bocca001]

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

[Domer05]

Wow, nice find Marc. Who knew all you had to do was search for "American Knitwear" (rather than Keezer) pennants?

[Domer05]

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by Domer05

That Pirate mini is different from the normal, full size Pirate we always associated with Keezer. Come to think of it, it seems awfully consistent with Marc's SF Giants pennant, bearing no mark, but believed to be by Keezer/American Knitwear.

Both are 5" x 12".

Doesn't this suggest there's a whole set of baseball 5" x 12" minis by Keezer/American Knitwear with new artwork, not seen on older full size Keezers?

Those two absolutely could be from the same set!

[ooo-ribay]

Here's another definite Keezer. It's a shame the vast majority of these football Keezers are mini's.

[erikc21]

Originally Posted by bocca001

These are all stamped American Knitwear. All mini pennants.

Referring back to the conversation around Post #6806

I recently picked up this mini New York Yankees American Knitwear pennant. It is very similar to the full-sized Keezer pennant I'm selling on eBay. I don't know where this conversation left off, but I wanted to provide these contributions.

[bocca001]

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

[ooo-ribay]

With no real reasoning, I think Worton was a maker.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by bocca001

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. [...] So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

My opinion: Worton was just a retailer; and these labels were merely his retailer's mark. From the limited universe of Worton-marked pennants I know of, he peddled a mixture of both Trench and AMCO pennants. That alone tells me he couldn't have made them all.

Additionally, unlike Epstein, there's no trade catalogue or phone directory identifying Worton as a manufacturer of pennants. Nothing. If they made all of these pennants, they were a significant manufacturer, and there should be some directory classifying them as a pennant maker.

Finally, as Greg pointed out, look at their location: across the street from old Yankee Stadium. Where there was plenty of foot traffic containing fans headed into the ballpark for baseball and football games. In other words, the ideal spot for a brick and mortar souvenir shop. In contrast, most of the 20th century NYC-based pennant makers, including Epstein, were clustered together in the Garment District, down by lower Manhattan. Nowhere near their end-users....

For me, the 1948 advertisement for football supplies seals the deal. Felt pennants were just one of several different novelty items they offered ... along with some complementary goods, e.g., pennant canes and charms; but also ... rabbits feet. That tells me they were a retail store, and to stay in business year round, they had to offer more than just felt pennants to their retail customers.

I've never heard of a single manufacturer making both pennants and rabbits feet, have you?

So, for me, they were just a retailer that sourced their felt pennants from a variety of makers over the years. Because they purchased so many each year, these makers rewarded them by sewing Worton's name on their pennants. It's really not too different from a concessionaire's mark. Not only were Trench (and others) known for doing this, it would explain why there's plenty more of these same pennants with no label on them, i.e., because they were purchased from another retail source.

[bocca001]

Hmm.. those are all good pieces of evidence and I want to believe. Being located in the garment business district may be the most convincing evidence to me that Epstein was a maker. I'm not so sure about the rabbits feet being evidence against Worton being a maker. The stuff people found for Epstein indicates that they sold other things too (e.g., feathers, "favors"), and I seem to recall that Keezer and ASCO made/sold many types of items. Especially buttons, which makes me think they also sold all of the types of things that came with the buttons (ribbons, charms, etc). I also did not recall anyone posting a catalog from Epstein.

I also don't have especially strong feelings about this one way or another (i.e., it does not matter to me if Worton is a maker or not). Just find it fun to have the discussions.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Thanks, Erik. Crossed bats seem to be a common theme in this series.

About Worton, I look forward to hearing more from Kyle and others. It is interesting that the ad talks about price per 100. Makes it seem like high volume. Based on what's available on worthpoint, seems like the Worton and Epstein labels are both pretty rare (maybe 10 examples of each). But Trench labels are also pretty rare. So how to tell the difference between a maker and a down the line seller?

Marc, is it correct that this pennant here was advertised as having the Worton label? Because I am about 99.9% confident that this is a WGN production. If Worton slapped a tag on it then I think we have an answer.

[bocca001]

Hey Greg- I went back and checked the auction site (Heritage) and it seems pretty clear that it was this Yankees pennant below (which was in a second set of pics) that matched the description of having a Worton tag. And it fits with respect to style. Good catch. Seems like the pennants in this style are usually 3/4 or so in size.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Marc, is it correct that this pennant here was advertised as having the Worton label? Because I am about 99.9% confident that this is a WGN production. If Worton slapped a tag on it then I think we have an answer.

If, as Kyle surmises, Worton retailed pennants for Trench, AMCO and others, I don’t think Worton would be the ones to “slap on” their tag. If that was the case, there would be overlapping stitching. I can only think Worton would have sent their tags to the maker i.e. “Please supply us with 100 Yankees pennants; here’s 100 tags.” Yes?