Al mvp

oldjudge · #1 10-06-2022, 01:38 PM

Otani is a great player on a losing team. How “valuable” was he. If the Angels didn’t have him they still would have missed the playoffs. In fact, they may have been better off without him as they would have had a worse record and thus a higher draft pick. Without Judge the Yankees almost surely don’t win the division and might not even make the playoffs. Also, just looking at absolute performance Judge’s WAR was 1.9 points higher than Otani’s. I think Judge will win almost unanimously.

Shoeless Moe · #2 10-06-2022, 01:53 PM

Judge no brainer.

Ohana also gets points taken off for resigning with that minor league franchise.

G1911 · #3 10-06-2022, 01:57 PM

Judge will win easily and I would probably vote for him.

I am not convinced that he actually had more value than Ohtani though.

211 OPS+ vs a 145 OPS+ and being one of the best pitchers in baseball and an ERA+ of 172.

Is Judge really better than a star hitter who is also one of the best pitchers? I can see it either way, they have to be close.

packs · #4 10-06-2022, 02:10 PM

Ohtani is Ohtani. If your criteria for the MVP season in and season out is that Ohtani pitched and hit above average, then there's no need to talk about MVPs. You'll award it to him every year for having largely the same season.

You may also start advocating for Wes Ferrell to be enshrined too. The guy won 20 games 6 times and finished his career with a 280 average. He didn't win a single MVP during his career. Not even when he hit 347 and led the league in wins.

Judge hit 62 home runs. His OPS+ is 211. He scored 130 runs. His season was out of this world. He kept the Yankees atop the AL East almost single handedly at times. He is a lot more valuable to the Yankees than Ohtani was to the Angels, who would have had the same season with or without him.

JollyElm · #5 10-06-2022, 03:09 PM

I'm not an Ohtaniac, so all I know about him is what I pick up in passing, but if you took either one of his two halves, he would've been the club leader (probably?) in many of the categories on a majority of teams. Pitching - 15-9 with a 2.33 ERA, and batting - .273, 34 HR and 95 RBIs???? Frickin' yowza!!!!!!!!

nolemmings · #6 10-06-2022, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Judge will win easily and I would probably vote for him.

I am not convinced that he actually had more value than Ohtani though.

211 OPS+ vs a 145 OPS+ and being one of the best pitchers in baseball and an ERA+ of 172.

Is Judge really better than a star hitter who is also one of the best pitchers? I can see it either way, they have to be close.

Agreed. Ohtani's numbers are unreal. He'll probably finish 2nd in Cy Young and would finish with MVP votes if he never threw an inning given those offensive numbers. But he did win last year, and I believe there's a slight bias against back-to-back awards. Judge's numbers are also certainly MVP worthy though.

It is interesting to imagine what the sentiment would be if those players put up the exact same numbers but played for each other's teams. I would expect the Yankees to still make the playoffs and likely win the division comfortably and also expect that the Angels would miss the playoffs, 62 HRs etc notwithstanding.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 10-06-2022, 04:30 PM

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

packs · #8 10-06-2022, 04:34 PM

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 10-06-2022, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I think about Ohtani in terms of if he were to play with the Yankees and wonder if they'd commit to two-way play the same way the Angels have. I just can't imagine the Yankees wanting to risk their ace separating his shoulder stealing second base or something. They already went through that with Chien-Ming Wang and threw a big stink then about him having to hit. Wang was never the same after that.

If he had less power it would be an easy choice, but how do you just decide not to play a guy who is going to hit 30-40 HR for you?

clydepepper · #10 10-06-2022, 04:44 PM

It wouldn't be a bad time for the second set of co-MVPs.

On Judge: Not only did he break a 61-year old record, he carried the Yankee offense during some long draughts for the others. I seriously doubt that, without him, they would have made even these expanded playoffs.

On Ohtani: He's doing things that have NEVER been done before...that is, before last year. It's still amazing, and you could argue that this year was even better than last year, but, if he could ever be accused of carrying his team, it wasn't enough- they didn't come close to the playoffs.

Better season- I give Ohtani the edge.

MOST VALUABLE - Judge.

.

G1911 · #11 10-06-2022, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

Exactly. 73% over the league pitcher + a 45% over the league batter is almost always going to be better than a 111% over the league batter.

I get that Ohtani is old news, giving the MVP to the same guy every year is boring, and he is not a New Yorker but I have a hard time seeing how he isn't the most valuable player again, and probably every year he performs like this. I'm fine with Judge getting it, I would probably vote for him because of the historicity of the season, but is he really more valuable? Almost certainly not.

campyfan39 · #12 10-06-2022, 08:37 PM

THIS
Would love to see him on a winning team. Great pitching stats on such a poor team. Judge will win but O is the better player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You're a GM. Which of these choices do you make?

1. Replace your average RF with Judge.
2. Replace your average DH with Ohtani, AND replace one of your OK starters with Ohtani.

I could be wrong but wouldn't most choose option 2?

bdk1976 · #13 10-06-2022, 10:07 PM

Judge will win. If they swapped teams with all else being equal, Ohtani would win.

Playing for the Yankees is like being in an souped-up affirmative action program for awards and recognition. I'm still waiting for any kind of remotely convincing argument as to Phil Rizzuto's HOF qualifications and have been for nearly 30 years now. It's so depressing it's not even a fun discussion to have.

Spare the 'Judge almost won the triple crown" BS. Ted Williams actually did win the triple crown - TWICE - and lost MVP to a Yankee BOTH times, and I don't recall either of those guys being a top notch starting pitcher while also delivering at the plate.